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AUXLANG  August 2000, Week 4

AUXLANG August 2000, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Mor speling reform

From:

James Chandler <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 22 Aug 2000 07:44:39 GMT

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (171 lines)

Mike rote:

>In the US there are three unstressed (really unstressed) vowels
>schwa (I assume this needs no further comment)
>schwar (likewise, as in 'bitter'
>schwih (mei oen naim for it)
>as in (marked by -schwih- )
>'gentelm-e-n'
>'electric' -e-lectr-i-c

Would you go as far as to say that there are three distinct phonemes here?
I always assumed that if americans pronounced [@] (or something slightly
higher) initially, that this would be a realization of probably /@/,
possibly /I/, but that americans would have a clear idea which.

Bloomfield writes 'bird' as /brd/, which suggests that if /r/ can occur as
vowel (and nucleus), it is not always unstressed.  On the other hand, it
always seemed to me most likely that 'bird' would be underlyingly /b@rd/,
'father' underlyingly /faD@r/, etc.  John Wells, in Accents of English,
proposes that syllabic consonants are always realizations of schwa+cons, on
the basis that even students of phonetics find it hard to distinguish
between the two.  If the same is true with respect to syllabic /l/, /n/ etc.
in AmEng, then its a fair bet it is also true of /r/.

>Sort of. That is taking into consideration the distribution of phones to
>make
>judgements about their existence.
>In the case of [N] it's range of occurence is staggeringly small. That is
>it
>occurs
>a) before [k] or [g]
>b) morpheme finally (never in the middle of a morpheme, that is)
>bring
>sing
>This makes it fishy right away. In the US, between vowels, [N] can always
>be
>replaced by [Ng] without destroying meaning. (most people don't say [siNgr]
>but
>they recognize it right away.
>This can even work across words, ie Long Island, pronounced by many with
>[Ng]

For anyone in the south of England, inserting a [g] in any such word will
immediately make it wrong and unacceptable.

> >  But for RP at any rate, their exclusion of /N/ as
> > a phoneme is not viable.  Just get someone to syllabify the words
>'singer,
> > finger', or do it yourself.  They will say siN-er, fiN-ger.  Or again,
>take
> > the SPE notion that 'timber' is underlyingly /tinber/.  Now get someone
>to
> > syllabify words like this.  They will say tim-ber, not tin-ber, as one
>would
> > expect if C-H were right.  Take a word like 'dinghy', which i pronounce
> > [dINi].  How is this to be explained on the SPE theory (without
>proposing
> > that it contains /x/ ...) ?
>
>That's a very good example, as close to intervocalic and morpheme internal
>as I
>can think of.

Yes, it _is_ intervocalic, and it _is_ morpheme-internal.  This is surely
sufficient to demonstrate the existence of a phoneme /N/ - otherwise we have
to resort to absurd solutions like underlying representations with /x/.

>I can't speak for others, but I bet some people think of it (as I tend to
>do)
>as
>ding - y (dig + general adj. or dim. ending)

Personally i have never once thought of 'dinghy' as composed of two
morphemes.  It would be impossible to interpret the -y as any kind of
ending, because then there would have to be a morpheme 'ding', which quite
patently there is not.

The situation is different for 'thingy', for example.  Here i _do_ think of
-y as being some kind of addition to the word 'thing'.  So here [N] does not
seem to be morpheme-internal (also 'tangy' from 'tang').

>I'd be curious to know if New Yorkers can say [diNgi] (I bet they could)

Some people over here say this.  It varies pretty much at random, not even
on north-south lines, as one might expect.

> > A further fact which i think is intresting is that i pronounce 'gang'
> > [g:{N] with a long vowel, but 'ganging (up)' with a short [{].  This is
> > presumably to be explained by the [n] becoming the onset of the
>following
> > syllable, thus no longer lengthening the vowel.  But if 'ganging' really
>is
> > syllabicly ga-NiN, then /N/ can actually occur at the start of a
>syllable,
> > which destroys Sapirs idea that it only occurs word-finally in Eng, and
>thus
> > should not be counted as a true phoneme like /m/ and /n/.
> >
>
>I think you have it backward. Generally in English the phonetic sequence
>CVC
>will have a longer vowel than CVCV (especially the the final C in the first
>is
>voiced).

Let me expand on this a little.  In my dialect, /{/ tends to be long when it
is followed by a voiced cons within the same syllable.  Thus 'ram, slam,
fan, gang, pan, pad' all have long vowels.  There are exceptions: 'hang,
fad, had, have', but mostly this holds, and always does with -m and -n.

Now, when i add -ing to a verb, the vowel always gets shortened.  Thus:

slam (long)    ->    slamming (short)
fan  (long)    ->    fanning  (short)
pad  (long)    ->    padding  (short)

If i syllabify any of the right-hand words, the first vowel is short:
sla-ming etc.  Now, 'gang' is also long for me.  In 'ganging' the vowel is
shortened exactly as for the other examples.  If i try to syllabify
'ganging', the division i feel happiest with is 'ga-nging', even tho it
feels a bit odd to say.  But this means that the shortening in this word
could be explained by the same rule as for all the above ones, namely that a
long [{] is shortened if the voiced cons is removed from its syllable.

> > >Beseids dhe siequences, [nk] and [Nk] (or /nk/ and /Nk/ if yu prefer,
>never
> > >contrast absoluetly in SAI)
> >
> > Actually, one can hear [nk], for instance when a word like
>'unbelievable' is
> > given great emphasis: 'Its UN-believable'.
>
>incontinent? (sorry I couldn't think of  more tasteful example)
>for me [nk] and [Nk] would be in free variation there.

In my follow-up post, i gave the example 'un-controlable', which for me is
acceptable with either [n] or [N].  So here [N] is presumably a realization
of /n/ (this is what i mean by phonemic representations not being tightly
constrained by surface phonetics: just because we admit a phoneme /N/, this
doesnt mean that _evry_ [N] has to be a realization of it).

> > Compare this with someone
> > saying: 'No, he cut his FIN-ger'.  You would reject this as
>ungrammatical.
>
>I'm not so sure I would ...

But you would syllabify fing-ger, right?  I will say more about this in
another post.

> > So in fact /n/ and /N/ do contrast
> > pre-/k/.
>
>or /g/ as the case may be????

Youre right: pre /k/ or /g/.

Kordiale, James Chandler
[log in to unmask]
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5037

"The 'linguistic evidence' for a given linguistic theory is like the
evidence that led to quark theory - namely that the theory brings order to a
given domain. That by itself may not indicate what aspects of the theory
correspond to reality and what aspects are artifacts of notation." - Gilbert
Harman, Two quibbles about analyticity and psychological reality, Behavioral
and Brain Sciences 3 (Harmans Hatchet)

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October 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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