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CONLANG  September 2000, Week 3

CONLANG September 2000, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Ancient Greek Phonology

From:

Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:15:59 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (102 lines)

At 8:28 am +0000 19/9/00, Lars Henrik Mathiesen wrote:
>> Date:         Tue, 19 Sep 2000 06:57:40 +0100
[....]
>
>I think the most exhaustive treatment (of Attic) still is this:
>
>   W. Sidney Allen, Vox Graeca, 3rd Ed., CUP, 1987, ISBN 0521335558
>
>See <url:http://uk.cambridge.org/classics/catalogue/0521335558>. Price
>GBP 14.95, in stock.

Certainly, it's probably the most accessible in English.

>But not everyone agrees with Mr. Allen. Or so I've heard.

Not in all details.  But the broad outlines are OK, IMHO.

Indeed, if anyone claims to be able to reconstruct the pronunciation of 5th
cent. BC Athens so that s/he would readily intelligible if s/he could
journey back there in a time-machine, treat the claim with the contempt it
deserves.  There are too many lacunae in our knowledge as we travel back
from the Hellenistic period - we can only get the broad outlines.

If you manage French, I recommend:
"Phonétique historique du Mycénien et du Grec ancien" by Michel Lejeune,
published in Paris in 'Éditions Klincksieck'

- my copy was bought in the days before ISBN.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

At 10:58 am -0500 19/9/00, Dan Seriff wrote:
[....]
>
>> - "standard" AG has been modelled on that or those dialect(s)
>
>"Standard" AG is pretty much the straight Attic of Plato & Aristotle
>(and others, of course), as far as I can tell.

Pretty much.  Though Plato & Aristotle did not write straight Attic -
Xenophon did.  The former two wanted to make their Greek less provincial so
avoided, e.g. such strictly Attic features as _thalatta_ where most Greeks
had _thalassa_ .  It was this sort of "de-provincialized" Attic-based Greek
that became a sort of accepted standard and formed the basis of the Greek
Koine and hence of modern Greek also.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

At 11:26 am -0400 19/9/00, Vasiliy Chernov wrote:
[....]
>
>The only thing that can be IMO inferred from the above is that upsilon
>*wasn't* any [ü]...
>

While agreeing generally with most of what Vasiliy wrote, I cannot go along
with the last remark.  If [y], or some similar sound, was not the sound
given in the Roman period to "y", it is difficult to see why the early
Saxons used the letter that way (tho I guess they were a pretty inventive
lot).

But I agree we can't be certain of the sound and it probably varied in any
case as, e.g. _u_ does in modern Welsh where, in the north it is [1] (high,
central, unrounded - IPA barred_i) and [i] in the south.  It seems that,
having obviously began its life as [u], it migrated to the high, central
rounded vowel (IPA barred_u, SAMPA [}]) before assuming the modern sounds.

Y may well not have moved all the way to [y] but only as far as [}] and
then could well have become [1] and thence the modern [i].

We simply cannot tell - but I think the weight of evidence is that it was
still generally rounded in the roman period, i.e. either [y] or [}].
--------------------------------------------------------------------
At 1:46 pm +0000 19/9/00, Oskar Gudlaugsson wrote:
>>From: Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>
......
>>The Romans did not know the ancient pronunciation.  The only pronunciation
>>the knew was the Koine.  Some very early borrowings were made in speech
>>through contact with Greeks in southern Italy where the Dorian settlements
>>still pronounced upsilon as [u] or [u:]; thus we find 'Pyrrhos' rendered as
>>_Burrus_.
>
>Why with a 'b'? Didn't Romans and Greeks both pronounce 'b' as a voiced
>bilabial?

Yes, indeed.  It seems to suggest that Romans tended to give some
aspiration to initial voiceless plosives, so that the initial unaspirated
voiceless plosive sounded more the voiced form.

Later, when the contacts were more formalized and Greek was met through the
written forms as well spoken, the Romans adopted the convention of writing
B, P and PH for the three different Greek sounds.  But there is no doubt
this was due to education and the work of schoolmasters.  We know from
casual inscriptions & graffiti that _h_ had dropped out of spoken Latin
before the end of the 1st cent. BC.

Ray.

=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

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