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AUXLANG  September 2000, Week 4

AUXLANG September 2000, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Eo's Screaming... (was Re: In/transitive

From:

michael farris <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:12:46 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (130 lines)



Ken Caviness wrote:

> Now read again the possible solutions I listed (excerpted from a
> previous message for your convenience):
>
> (1) overloading the letter with multiple unrelated sounds (common in
> some natural languages)

Not a good idea (although if done consistently not a huge problem, people are not
that stupid after all. Spanish 'c' pronounced [s] or [T] (Depending on where it's
spoken) before i and e and [k] everywhere else does not exactly tax the old brain
cells too much.

> (2) overloading letter combinations to form digraphs with sound values
> unrelated to the sounds of the individual letters (also common in
> certain ethnic languages)

The way I prefer to write Eo used four (4) four count 'em four diagraphs. I'll
list them, 'ch' 'gh' 'jh' and 'sh'. Again, not exactly a brainbuster for most
people. On those rare occasions when g + h does not equal 'gh', the two can be
separated with a hyphen as in 'flug-haveno'.
It makes the alphabet slightly harder to learn and increases the ease with which
it can be mechanically reproduced immensely. The latter outweighs the former in my
not-exactly-humble opinion (why can't people just see I'm right? dammit!)
Having said that, if another option had some sort of official recognition (or
endorsement from a group of Eo bigshots) I'd be happy to use that instead.


Let's take a paragraph chosen at random and use the brain-staggering handicap of
four two letter combinations.

ho-metodo
En tre multaj landoj ekzistas kablo-reta sistemo, per kiu de iu centralo (kelkloke
ech memstara studio) oni transsendas al individuaj abonantoj, loghejoj amason de
TV- kaj serion de radio-programoj, prenitaj de diversaj satelitoj. Aldono de novaj
programoj kutime estas limigita pro la licencpago-devo al la originaj TV- aw
radio-studioj. Teknike ili estas fareblaj relative facile (por fakuloj), chefe
facilas aldono de nova radioprogramo, ja tio bezonas nur minimuman
frekvenco-bendon kaj investon. La Esperanto-redakcio de Pola Radio rezignas pri
tiu licencpago! Do, por ke en via kablo-reto estu awdebla ankaw E-lingva programo,
dependas nur de via aktivigho.

iks-metodo (kun 'w' anstataw ux)
En tre multaj landoj ekzistas kablo-reta sistemo, per kiu de iu centralo (kelkloke
ecx memstara studio) oni transsendas al individuaj abonantoj, logxejoj amason de
TV- kaj serion de radio-programoj, prenitaj de diversaj satelitoj. Aldono de novaj
programoj kutime estas limigita pro la licencpago-devo al la originaj TV- aw
radio-studioj. Teknike ili estas fareblaj relative facile (por fakuloj), cxefe
facilas aldono de nova radioprogramo, ja tio bezonas nur minimuman
frekvenco-bendon kaj investon. La Esperanto-redakcio de Pola Radio rezignas pri
tiu licencpago! Do, por ke en via kablo-reto estu awdebla ankaw E-lingva programo,
dependas nur de via aktivigxo.

Either of these is okay by me. (I'm not crazy about 'jx' but I could get used to
it, I detest 'ux' however, I think 'w' works better). Theoretically, the 'x'
solution is maybe slightly superior since it (x) is not otherwise used, but the
degree of superiority is probably not statistically relvant (trying to sound
scientific and important).

Either of these two forms can be produced on _any_ technology that uses the roman
script (let's not confuse 'script' and 'alphabet' as we, including me, have often
done in the past) without the slightest problem, no waiting for unicode, no
writing in accents by hand which I've seen in supposedly professionally produced
eo materials, no workarounds, no nothing, it's just there, ready. It's just that
easy!!!!!

I've gone on record for a Yugoslavia-style solution (no, not sitting in the
mountains and shooting at people), that means preserving the traditional letters
for those who want to use them but giving either of these two alternatives (or
maybe somehting else) full equality all the time. So that if the special
characters are not available (or you just don't want to mess with them) you can
use the other system. I wonder why no eo proponent here has ever responded to that
proposal (I've written it two or three times already, and I'll keep mentioning it
until I get a response).

> (3) inventing new, non-Latin characters for the extra sounds (as in
> Icelandic, etc.)

Fine for an ethnic language or a hobby language, but very poor strategy if you
want other people to use your language as a pontolingvo.

> (4) using an accented letter to represent a sound different from the
> unaccented letter (also honored by usage in ethnic languages, although
> not in English)

same answer as for (3)

> Mike, I'm sure you had a lot of fun writing your message, of which I've
> only quoted the part I was actually willing to read twice.

I'm glad you recognized how much fun it was (and your loss if you only read it
once)

> But in
> the fun of the repetitive redundancy of using and reusing your new
> favorite phrase

yes, say it loud! say it proud! Eo screaming-pain-in-the-butt letters! Can I get
an amen?/???

> you may have inadvertently omitted to (a) specify which
> of the above solutions you favor, or (b) add other, better options to
> the list.

I've done so in the past often enough. (As have you, I guess)

> Until you are able (or willing) to get down to cases, your contributions
> to this thread risk being viewed (hypothetically speaking, of course!)
> as mere name-calling.

Well, Roy does have experience that's hard to argue with. (and my first
experiments with page construction confirmed that using supersigned letters is no
easy affair, even when they're present in the document you're trying to put on the
page).

Now, I'll hang my head in shame for my evilness and malfundamentismo though I did
spend about 10 hours yesterday listening to or speaking Esperanto. I'm not exactly
Bruce What's-his-name, I support Eo, but as a working/public life bridge language,
not a koffee-klatsch language.
Now, I hope _you'll_ do me the favor of asking a quesiton of mine.
Let's assume a group of Eo-bigshots is going to agree with my Yugoslavia option,
and give one supersignless method their endorsement. Which supersign-less would
you prefer to have equal status to the supersigns? ho-metodo or iks-metodo (with
w)? Or something else? Why?

amike
-mike farris

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November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
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December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
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August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
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July 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 1
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November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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