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AUXLANG  September 2000, Week 4

AUXLANG September 2000, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Esperanto Reform in eGroups /// The XXX principle

From:

Roy McCoy <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:30:56 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (109 lines)

LeoMoser([log in to unmask]) skribis:

> There is a thesis that Esperanto, instead of being the "path"
> has been the "stumbling block." The concept goes that Eo
> has preempted the field just enough to rule out its rivals,
> but not succeeded enough to do the job.
>
> I do not much ascribe to either the "path" or "stumbling
> [block]" theories.

I believe I ascribe to both, actually. In insisting that an IAL which is
to supersede Esperanto must attain the exceedingly grudging approval of
current Esperantists, I believe I'm setting an appropriately high standard
for such a language. On the other hand, I'm intimately acquainted with
several ways in which the Esperanto movement has indeed acted as a
stumbling block. There is some truth in your above formulation, though
I view the problem more as a perverse misdefinition of the ideology so
that only "naivuloj, stultuloj, frenezuloj kaj hipokritaj memservistoj"
can ascribe to it. By insisting on allegiance to a somewhat obscure and
logically non-evident dogma, they assure that extremely few self-respecting
intellectuals will have anything to do with them.

> Eo has shown that people can learn and use artificially designed
> languages; so it sets the stage. I see nothing however to indicate
> that Eo is the specific model to follow.

There seems to be a scale here. Esperantists generally think that their
relative success (existence of a continuing movement, congress every year,
literature, NGO, etc.) proves that their language is the only game in town
and absolutely the only way to go. I think that the Esperanto movement
isn't really all that impressive and that something else could foreseeably
come along to replace it, but I still credit it with major significance
in the interlinguistic tradition. You, on the other hand, appparently
consider it "nothing". So I'm between you and them on that.

> But I COULD be right.

The odds are highly against that, looking at the matter statistically
in consideration of the hundreds or thousands of alternative projects that
have been published. Even if you put together a nice basic system like
Lingua Franca Nova's ( http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/lfnintro.html, if
still there), you're still going to be ten million miles away from
dictionaries, textbooks, official recognition, school programs and so
forth, and you'll be lucky to wind up even with a couple of speakers.
I don't think I'm being cynical, just appreciative of what seems to
happen with such projects.

> The web-site seems to be in only Eo, a language that I cannot use
> for such purposes.

You should be able to read it, and you're very welcome to post in Acadon.
Sorry I didn't say that before.

> I suppose you have seen some of the sample texts that I have posted
> on Auxlang.

No, that must have been before I resubscribed. If you could e-mail me
a couple I would appreciate it.

> All languages, IMO, have irregularities. The objective
> is to restrict them to areas where they do as little
> damage as possible and perhaps provide some gain.

I'm curious as to what I was referring to. Looking at the downloaded files
again, I see:

> Pronunciation will be far easier [than English, etc., for a Korean
> learning Acadon, there will be no spelling problems to face; most
> irregularities of verbs and plurals will be gone;...

Are there any particular irregularities there that you're planning on
retaining?

> [Acadon] applies a stress pattern that leaves most words accented on the
> final syllable -- and all longer words with a secondary (lighter) accent
> on the first syllable.

This may have been what disturbed me. I like looking at an Esperanto word
and knowing that there is no doubt as to where the accent falls, no matter
what the word is. I don't think anybody can beat that, and even if there
are only a few exceptions, that's still enough to cause (unnecessary)
confusion.

> Esperanto has its irregularities too.

I don't defend them, and would ideally like to eliminate them.

> Simplicity and practicality are IMO more important than regularity.

You nonetheless repeatedly claim advantages of regularity for Acadon,
so you're hardly heedless of it. My view is that simplicity/practicality
and regularity imply one another, and that there is hardly any genuine
distinction among them.

> It is my impression that Ido incorporated some regularizations that
> turned out to create difficulty for users.

That wasn't because they were regularizations, that was because they
were Ido. :-)  Seriously, what are you referring to?

> I'd expand it a bit to read "The fact that X percent of a
> public finds language feature Y more useful or even
> subjectively preferable to language feature Z can properly
> be descibed as part of objective reality."

Yeah.

Roy McCOY

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