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AUXLANG  September 2000, Week 4

AUXLANG September 2000, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Eo's Screaming... (was Re: In/transitive

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:24:12 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (164 lines)

Thanks to MF & PB for responding to my 4 listed options for dealing with
the problem of too many sounds for number of the available letters:

> Ken Caviness skribis:
>
> > (1) overloading the letter with multiple unrelated sounds (common in
> > some natural languages)

michael farris skribis:

> Not a good idea

Good, we agree.

> (although if done consistently not a huge problem, people are not
> that stupid after all. Spanish 'c' pronounced [s] or [T] (Depending on where it's
> spoken) before i and e and [k] everywhere else does not exactly tax the old brain
> cells too much.

I hear you, but it's the kind of thing I'd definitely avoid in a
planlingvo.  Spanish pronunciation is surprisingly regular for a wild
language, but I still was tripped up repeatedly in elementary Spanish
class, primarily because of rules for shifting accent.  Any
simplifications here are welcome.  Since I speak French, the different c
and g sounds before i or e didn't exactly surprise me, but let's just
say that I don't highly prize that feature.

It seems to me that almost nothing is a problem for someone who grows up
with the language, a few complications are not unbearable for the adult
learner, but the difficulty increases exponentially with the number of
complications, since we have to try to keep many things straight at
once.

> > (2) overloading letter combinations to form digraphs with sound values
> > unrelated to the sounds of the individual letters (also common in
> > certain ethnic languages)

Paul Bartlett skribis:

>     But digraphs are not always "unrelated to the sounds of the
> individual letters."  Consider Ido, which I am sure you are familiar
> with.  It uses only two digraphs, 'ch' for /tS/ and 'sh' for /S/.  Is
> this really such a big deal?  Considering that as Latin mutated into
> various dialects, 'c' as /k/ sometimes mutated phonologically into 'c'
> as /ts/, which is its orthographic usage in both Esperanto and Ido and
> is historically justifiable.  And it does not seem a stretch to me to
> believe that 'ch' as /tsh/ could mutate into /tS/ and 'sh' as /sh/ into
> /S/.

I'm familiar with the use of 'ch' and 'sh' for c^ and s^, of course,
from English.  But the digraphs _do_ have different values in other
languages, so I prefer to avoid them.  I am also familiar with
representing these sounds as 'tsch' and 'sch', from German.  Although
you present an interesting case for the thesis, it does not seem to me
that the phonetic relationship in English is the same in the two cases:
'c':'ch' != 's':'sh'.

>     So I think that in this case, the Ido digraphs are not so
> farfetched.  Using a whole two -- count' em, the fantastically large
> number of two -- digraphs to be learned by themselves is far, far, far
> less a burden than dealing with accented letters peculiar to one
> auxiliary language by itself.  In such an instance, I think that by a
> pragmatic judgment the digraphs are much more practical than the
> supersigned letters.  Why place an unnecessary obstacle in the way of
> users of a language which is supposed to *facilitate* communication,
> not impede it by its written form?

You're right, 2 digraphs is not a horrible burden.  But it's a step in
the wrong direction, and it's an extra anglicism which I find
distasteful.  (Or am I wrong?  Is there another ethnic language besides
English which uses 'sh' and 'ch' with the same sound values?)

In any case, one has to weigh the pros & cons, and clearly you have
assigned different weights on them in this particular instance than I
do.

michael farris skribis:

> The way I prefer to write Eo used four (4) four count 'em four diagraphs. I'll
> list them, 'ch' 'gh' 'jh' and 'sh'. Again, not exactly a brainbuster for most
> people. On those rare occasions when g + h does not equal 'gh', the two can be
> separated with a hyphen as in 'flug-haveno'.
> It makes the alphabet slightly harder to learn and increases the ease with which
> it can be mechanically reproduced immensely. The latter outweighs the former in my
> not-exactly-humble opinion (why can't people just see I'm right? dammit!)
> Having said that, if another option had some sort of official recognition (or
> endorsement from a group of Eo bigshots) I'd be happy to use that instead.

You're right, 4 digraphs is not a horrible burden.  But it's a step in
the wrong direction, and, yesss, I will finally admit it:  I find the
whole idea of digraphs distasteful.  There, are you satisfied?!

> I've gone on record for a Yugoslavia-style solution (no, not sitting in the
> mountains and shooting at people), that means preserving the traditional letters
> for those who want to use them but giving either of these two alternatives (or
> maybe somehting else) full equality all the time. So that if the special
> characters are not available (or you just don't want to mess with them) you can
> use the other system. I wonder why no eo proponent here has ever responded to that
> proposal (I've written it two or three times already, and I'll keep mentioning it
> until I get a response).

Why is that better than Zamenhof's mentioning the ho-metodo for cases
when the superscripts are too difficult?  Why do you want "full equality
all the time"?  As far as I'm aware, anyone can use the ho-metodo any
time anyway, so the current situation isn't greatly different.  Or are
you picturing an superscripted elite looking down their aristocratic
noses at your ho's?  I wouldn't let it bother me.

> > (3) inventing new, non-Latin characters for the extra sounds (as in
> > Icelandic, etc.)
>
> Fine for an ethnic language or a hobby language, but very poor strategy if you
> want other people to use your language as a pontolingvo.

I tend to agree.

> > (4) using an accented letter to represent a sound different from the
> > unaccented letter (also honored by usage in ethnic languages, although
> > not in English)
>
> same answer as for (3)

I don't agree to the same extent as for (3).  Adding an accent is such a
common operation in so many of the languages based on Latin, it just
doesn't seem that bad to me, and probably we wouldn't even have the
problem except that early computers were limited (first to CAPS ONLY,
and then later) to unaccented characters only, probably because
Americans are monolingual, to a first approximation.

> > Mike, I'm sure you had a lot of fun writing your message, of which I've
> > only quoted the part I was actually willing to read twice.
>
> I'm glad you recognized how much fun it was (and your loss if you only read it
> once)

It's so sad that I don't recognise it as a loss....
...

> Now, I hope _you'll_ do me the favor of asking a quesiton of mine.
> Let's assume a group of Eo-bigshots is going to agree with my Yugoslavia option,
> and give one supersignless method their endorsement. Which supersign-less would
> you prefer to have equal status to the supersigns? ho-metodo or iks-metodo (with
> w)? Or something else? Why?
>
> amike
> -mike farris

I use back-apostrophe:  c`, etc.  x's look horrible to me, if you make
me choose a digraph I'll go along with the ho-metodo, but I'm glad I
don't have to.

Any other options?  I'm surprised noone has mentioned:

(5) use 'q', 'w', 'x' to represent 'c`', '', and 's^', respectively,
throw away all others ....

(6) use numerals (they're on your keyboard)

(7) ???

G`is reskribo,

Ken

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March 2001, Week 1
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