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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  September 2000, Week 4

CONLANG September 2000, Week 4

Subject:

Re: draqa syntax - help please?

From:

Marcus Smith <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:53:45 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (88 lines)

Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:

>Nur-ellen treats this differently.  This is a typical sentence
>of perception, where the perceiving entity goes into the dative
>and the object of perception into the objective:
>
>Na  i   ben     tir i   jin.
>DAT the AGT.man see the OBJ.child.PL

Curious usage, but it does make some sense.

>Without the dative preposition, the sentence expresses deliberate
>observation:
>
>I   ben     tir   i   jin.
>The AGT.man watch the OBJ.child.PL
>"The man watches the children."

Nice distinction.  Telek differentiates "watch" and "see" with different
verbs entirely -- like English.

>In Nur-ellen:   instrumental (_ni_ + objective)
>               + objective
>               + benefactive (_an_ + agentive).
>
>Ni   i   ven     an`n i   ljös          an  i   bes.
>INST the OBJ.man give the OBJ.flower.PL BEN the AGT.woman

Why do you treat woman as an agent here?

>It seems to stand on its own.  It is none of the ones mentioned.
>No trigger, but also not accusative, not ergative, and also not really
>an active language.  At least, nothing I'd recognize as active from
>what little experience I have with relational typology.
>But interesting out of its own right.
>
>It makes the active system in Nur-ellen (or do you find a reason why
>it is not active, Marcus?) look tame, even with its degrees of volition.

Nur-ellen is a fine active language.  The only oddities are the use of
agent for a goal and the fact that the marking is on the noun.  I would
certainly classify it as active.

>Nur-ellen:
>
>I   ves       vin.
>the OBJ.woman OBJ.beautiful
>
>Nur-ellen is a zero-copula language; and as "the woman" isn't actively
>doing anything in this sentence, the case marking is objective.

Instead of calling this a zero-copula language, I would say that adjectives
are a sub-class of verbs.  Not much of a difference between the two, but it
does "explain" why they both get tense.  (But what about predicative nouns?)

>As I said, predicative nouns and adjectives are marked for tense:

Telek has a copula that only shows up in these exact contexts: if you need
to add an affix to the verb (agreement, aspect, etc) then the copula is
used.  Otherwise, it isn't.

>Voromir     gondirent      e        Davrob`l.
>OBJ.Boromir OBJ.mayor-PAST GEN.PART OBJ.Tavrob`l
>"Boromir was mayor of Tavrob`l."
>
>(Yes, case and tense markers on the same word!  So here is the
>64,000 dollar question: is _gondirent_ a noun or a verb?)

A noun that has been incorporated into a silent verb. :-)
I like the way you put the tense on just _gondirent_ rather than the entire
phrase _gondirent e Davrob'l_.

>Or, with a zero-copula relative clause:
>
>Na  i   ben     tir i   ves       ji  vin.
>DAT the AGT.man see the OBJ.woman REL OBJ.beautiful

Is that an all-purpose relative marker, or does it change according to case?


===============================
Marcus Smith
AIM:  Anaakoot
"When you lose a language, it's like
dropping a bomb on a museum."
   -- Kenneth Hale
===============================

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