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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2000, Week 4

CONLANG September 2000, Week 4

Subject:

Re: draqa syntax - help please?

From:

Marcus Smith <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:03:46 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (67 lines)

Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:

>"The man" is an experiencer here, the perception is something that
>occurs to him.  This use of the dative is also used to express that
>something did (or failed to do) erroneously, not intending it, as
>in the famous _Na Turin dagnent Veleg mjeln_ example you probably
>remember.

Certainly.  I can see why you chose to do that.  I was just noting that it
is unusual.  I regard that as a good thing. :)

>I don't really do so.  It is just that the preposition _an_ governs
>the agentive case.  Most Nur-ellen prepositions govern the objective,
>but there are a few prepositions marking semantic roles which require
>an animate entity, that govern the agentive.

That makes sense.  It is quite common for languages not to allow inanimate
datives (goals/benefactives/malefactives/etc).  It's true of most active
languages I've looked at.  Sometimes they aren't completely banned, but
speakers definitely frown on them.

> >       and the fact that the marking is on the noun.  I would
> > certainly classify it as active.
>
>Is there any theoretical explanation why active languages are usually
>head-marking?

In a nutshell (email me privately for a longer story), the semantics that
determine active marking is a property of the verb, but case generally is a
property of the structure of the sentence, or at least the combination of
several individual elements besides the verb and nouns.  (Note: active
marking is not the same as case.  Active languages can also be accusative
or ergative on their nouns!)

> > Instead of calling this a zero-copula language, I would say that adjectives
> > are a sub-class of verbs.  Not much of a difference between the two, but it
> > does "explain" why they both get tense.  (But what about predicative
> nouns?)
>
>Adjectives in Nur-ellen normally behave quite noun-like, especially
>in being inflected for case.  What fits the facts better is perhaps
>that the copula is zero, but recevices tense suffixes which
>"fall through" onto the predicative noun or adjective.

I had overlooked the case marking.  Your way makes perfect sense.

> > A noun that has been incorporated into a silent verb. :-)
>
>Yes, that's a good one!  One idea I had how to put it is that the
>copula in Nur-ellen is an enclitic with a null stem.  Perhaps a
>better term for it than "a noun that has been incorporated into
>a silent verb" because verbs in Nur-ellen usually don't incorporate
>anything.

I was just joking, of course.  The incorporation story would work anyway
for other reasons.  (For example, incorporated nouns cannot have any
morphology -- that would rule out case.)  The enclitic story is much better.


===============================
Marcus Smith
AIM:  Anaakoot
"When you lose a language, it's like
dropping a bomb on a museum."
   -- Kenneth Hale
===============================

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