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CONLANG  October 2000, Week 4

CONLANG October 2000, Week 4

Subject:

Re: THEORY: Dirk on ambisyllabicity

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:43:38 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (254 lines)

Dirk:
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, And Rosta wrote:
> > Dirk:
> > > On Sun, 8 Oct 2000, And Rosta wrote:
> > > > FWIW (= not very much), my conclusion is that timing units are separate
> > > > from syllable structural units. E.g. (using O = onset, R = rhyme, T =
> > > > timing units):
> > > >
> > > >      O     R   O R          O     R     O R
> > > >     / \   / \ /  |         / \   / \    | |
> > > >    T   T T   T   T        T   T T   T   T T
> > > >    |   | |   |   |        |   | |    \ /  |
> > > >    s   t i   l   i        s   t i     l   i
> > > >
> > > >        [stIli]              [stIlli]
> > >
> > > I would agree. I would go further and say that onsets are not involved
> > > in timing relations, and that such relations are best expressed by
> > > morae.
> > >
> > >             s     s              s     s
> > >            /|    /|             /|\   /|
> > >           / m   / m            / m m / m
> > >          /  |  /  |           /  | |/  |
> > >         st  I l   i          st  I l   i
> >
> > Don't you mean this? :-
> >
> >              s     s              s     s
> >             /|    /|             /|\   /|
> >            / m   / m            / m m / m
> >           /  |\ /  |           /  | |/  |
> >          st  I l   i          st  I l   i
>
> Well, no. To be consistent with my anti-ambisyllabcity story I suppose
> I *really* meant
>
>                s   s                s     s
>               /|\  |               /|\   /|
>              / m m m              / m m / m
>             /  | | |             /  | |/  |
>            st  I l i            st  I l   i
>
> with the distinction between geminate and non-geminate apparent only
> in the association properties of [l]; in the first, [l] is associated
> only to the first syllable, while in the second it is associated to
> both. This would then not agree so much with your parse given above.
> However, if ambisyllabicity were seriously considered, then your
> revision of my [stIli] seems sensible.

Note the following RP pronunciations, where "5" is velarized "dark" L:

   still        [stI5]
   stilly (adj) [stIli]
   stilly (adv) [stI5li]

Your diagram for "stilly (adj)" would predict *[stI5i]. It seems clear
therefore that the /l/ is in the onset of the following syllable. There
are a few words where the inclusion of /l/ in the following onset is
optional:
                RP            SE demotic
 "William"     [wIlj@m]      ?[wIlj@m]   diyllabic;   /l/ in onset
               [wI5j@m]       [wIwj@m]   diyllabic;   /l/ not in onset
               [wIli@m]       [wIli@m]   trisyllabic; /l/ in onset
              *[wI5i@m]      *[wIwi@m]   trisyllabic; /l/ not in onset
 "failure"     [feIlj@]      ?[fEIlj@]   diyllabic;   /l/ in onset
               [feI5j@]       [fEwj@]    diyllabic;   /l/ not in onset
              *[feIli@]     *?[fEIli@]   trisyllabic; /l/ in onset
              *[feI5i@]      *[fEwi@]    trisyllabic; /l/ not in onset
 "dahlia"      [deIlj@]       [dEIlj@]   diyllabic;   /l/ in onset
              *[deI5j@]      ?[dEwj@]    diyllabic;   /l/ not in onset
               [deIli@]       [dEIli@]   trisyllabic; /l/ in onset
              *[deI5i@]      *[dEwi@]    trisyllabic; /l/ not in onset

What this shows is that
(a) if /l/ can belong to the coda then it needn't belong to the following
syllable so long as the following syllable has a filled onset, but it is
permitted to optionally join the following onset if no other phonotactic
constraints are flouted.
(b) /l/ can or must belong to the preceding coda if and only if it is
followed by a morpheme boundary or it follows a short vowel.

> > Apart from this, I agree with everything you say. I considered using
> > diagrams like yours, but hesitated for several reasons.
> >
> > (1) I'm not aware of positive arguments for a s node (though in effect
> > O and s seem to be notational equivalents).
>
> Did you learn phonology from John Harris or Jonathan Kaye?

Yes and no. To my immense pleasure, I was taught phonology by John Harris,
but before he was a Government Phonologist and before JK arrived. But I
was part of the milieu after JK arrived and JH became a Government
Phonologist, so I had a fair degree of exposure to it.

> Your representations remind me of Government Phonology.

Note that that's all they are; merely reminiscent of GP.

> I regret to say
> that I don't understand the theory well enough to offer a critique,
> but one thing springs to mind. If there is no s (=syllable) node, then
> how does the theory rule out consecutive Os? Consecutive Rs are not a
> problem, since under a more traditional account of prosodic structure,
> syllables need not have onsets; but they must have at least a nucleus,
> and hence a rhyme. So the presence of a syllable node is useful at
> least to account for the absence of consecutive onsets without
> rhymes. However, under a theory which does away with the syllable,
> there doesn't seem to be anything to rule out consecutive Os other
> than bald stipulation.

The GP answer is (or used to be) that the Obligatory Contour Principle
[i.e. the obligatory alternation, in temporal sequence, of categories of
a given class] forces OROROROROROR. This predicts the lack of contrast
between an absent onset and an empty onset. I can't offhand think of evidence
for the necessity of such a contrast, but if there is then it would indeed
motivate the Syllable node.

> As for 'O' and 's' being notational equivalents, I'm afraid don't see
> it. Doubtless this has to do with particulars of Government Phonology
> that I'm not familiar with. However, since our discussion seems to be
> about the multiple linking of a consonant between a rhyme and a
> following onset, I don't know that it is crucial to insist on an s
> node.

All I meant was that in the putative absence of evidence to the contrary,
the notion of 'onset' can be captured either by linking segments direct to
a S node, or instead to a O node, but with there being no need for an S
node to tie together O and R. Government Phonology prefers the O node
option because it claims that nodes branch only binarily, and that
'onsets' contain a maximum of two segments.

> > (2) For most dialects of English there is a rule that the nucleus and
> > the coda can each branch (into two segments each) only if the coda is
> > coronal. (For A-lengthening dialects, the rule holds only for nasal
> > + plosive codas, because long A introduces exceptions elsewhere.) It's
> > not clear to me how this contraint would be formulated in a mora-based
> > analysis if it eschews nucleus and rhyme nodes. [Incidentally, if
> > /ink/ and /eip/ are both bimoraic, to which mora does the medial segment
> > in each word belong?]
>
> What seems to be at issue here is the fact that the rhyme may contain
> up to four timing positions. Take the word 'pint'; I'm guessing that
> GP would parse this as follows:
>
>         O    R
>         |   / \
>         |  N   C
>         | / \ / \
>         x x x x x
>         | | | | |
>         p a I n t

That's how I'd conservatively do it. But GP does:

         O    R     O
         |   / \    |
         |  N   \   |
         | / \   \  |
         x x x    x x
         | | |    | |
         p e I    n t

> The problem for moraic phonology is two-fold: 1) how many morae
> are present? 2) how are morae assigned? The first is a problem, since
> there seems to be a well-founded principle limiting syllables to two
> morae, but there are twice that many segments in the rhyme of 'pint'.
> The second is a problem since there does not seem to be a principled
> way to parcel out the segments to the morae. My guess is that the
> first principle must be relaxed to allow at least a trimoraic
> syllable. Under this proposal, final coronals are never moraic when
> they follow another coronal. This sounds stipulatory, but I believe
> it's the route taken by Hammond (1999). Accordingly, 'pint' would
> receive the following moraic parse:
>
>            s              s
>          /| |\         / /|\ \
>         / m m m   or  / m m m \
>         | | | /\      | | | | |
>         p a I n t     p a I n t
>
> With the final [t] sharing the third mora, or alternatively, linked
> directly to the s-node (I'm not aware of arguments which would compell
> one structure over another).
>
> The examples you cite, [ink] and [eip], would also be trimoraic.

If we accepted your suggestion, I'd say that both structures occur. The
first one for "paint", so the rule is that the branching mora must contain
only coronal segments. The second structure would be appropriate for
inflected forms, such as "soaked":

            s              s
          /| |\         / /|\ \
         / m m m       / m m m \
         | | | /\      | | | | |
         p a I n t     s @ u k t

and for the handful of monomorphemic forms that seem to be parasitic on the
phonological shape of the inflected forms: "hoax, coax, corpse, traipse,
farct...".

I'm a bit bothered, though, by (a) the way English seems sensitive only to
the monomoraic/polymoraic contrast, and (b) the way inherently weak syllables
(e.g. in "buttock") can have codas, and noncoronal ones to boot. That is, your
analysis implies the existence of a dimoraic/trimoraic contrast, and also
appears to lack a way of defining "inherent weakness" (unless you allow for
yet another structure, like the following, the key thing being the extramoraic
final /k/ in a monomoraic syllable).

      s     s
     /|\   /|\
    / m m / m \
   /  | |/  |  \
  b   V t   @   k

> > (3) I'm not sure whether the the moraic analysis allows for (A)
> > segmentally empty positions such as would account for liaison blocking
> > in French (H-aspire, and ouatte/watt [ex. borrowed from someone else
> > (J-R Vergnaud?)], and perhaps for AN-cliticization in English and (B)
> > for unattached segments, such as word-initial geminates in 'classical'
> > Calabrese (which are realized as geminates only when following a
> > vowel-final word).
>
> Moraic phonology allows for both types of unaffiliation.
[...]
> I also use empty slots (not moraic, though) to account for the
> Geminating series in Shoshoni phonology. Briefly, voiceless stops are
> geminated following certain morphs:
>
>         kuna  'firewood'
>         kunappai 'have firewood'
>
>         cf
>
>         kynu  'grandfather (FaFa)'
>         kynuBai 'have a grandfather'
>
> In the first stem, there is an empty root node specified [+cons]. It
> receives its featural content from a following consonant. This creates
> a geminate, which is immune from lenition. When a consonant is not
> available, the empty root node remains unrealized, having no segmental
> material to draw from. In the second example, the stem is vowel-final;
> the initial consonant of the suffix is thus properly intervocalic and
> lenites.

This is clear. But why is the empty slot not moraic? Is there reason
to think the medial syllable of kunappai is monomoraic rather than
bimoraic?

[...]

--And.

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June 2009, Week 1
May 2009, Week 5
May 2009, Week 4
May 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 2
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 5
April 2009, Week 4
April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
November 2008, Week 4
November 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
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August 2007, Week 3
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July 2007, Week 5
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July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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