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CONLANG  October 2000, Week 4

CONLANG October 2000, Week 4

Subject:

Re: CONLANG Digest - 22 Oct 2000 to 23 Oct 2000 (#2000-290)

From:

Muke Tever <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:35:39 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (236 lines)

> From:    Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: New Lang: Igassik
>
> A more interesting feature (to me) is that it will have vowel
> deletion in alternate syllables; so for ex. its name can appear as either
> /prevli/ or /pervil/, presumably underlying {perevili}.  That's as far as
> I've gotten........

Atlantic (the name I've decided on for the second, western Hadwan
language){1} has this.  Only underlying {u} /U/ doesn't disappear, it
weakens to {o} /o/ in unstressed syllables and up to {u} /u/ in stressed
ones.

It goes, say, from Hadwan {vinjius} [vIn.'dZi.jUs] "prisoner" to Atlantic
*{vnjigos/vnzhigos} [vn=.'Zi.Gos].  (And much later, {výzhaigo}, should the
root manage to survive that long...)

> From:    Nik Taylor <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: IPA (Was: Re: Hello, I'm new too)
>
> John Cowan wrote:
> > For example,
> > [j] represents both the approximant of English "yes" and the fricative
> > of (some kinds of) Spanish "yo", because no known language makes a
phonemic
> > distinction between these sounds.
>
> Actually, those are different characters.  The approximate is [j], while
> the fricative is a j with a "curly tail" (see
> http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/fullchart.html), represented in SAMPA by
> [J\] (I think that's the symbol)

[j\], I think.

> From:    Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: CHAT: "Mister"  (WAS:    Re: New Lang: Igassik)
>
> I don't think there's that much difference here.  I don't think grade or
> high-school students would DREAM of using first names with an instructor,
so
> likely this is just a carry-over into college, where there is still a
> tendency for students to have (grudging) respect for their teachers, even
> lowly TAs :-).....Probably by senior year, and certainly in graduate
> courses, its all first names, except maybe with very senior faculty.  Even
> so, as I recall at Michigan, Pike's students called him Ken, but William
> Gedney (in Thai linguistics, and possibly even older than Pike) was NEVER
> Bill, but Prof. or Mr.
> So it depends.....

It has a lot to do with levels, at least at my university.  The teachers in
the school of art, very informal, I think all go by first names.  (Although
the last name may sometimes be used when talking _about_ them.)  I don't
know if anyone's used the construction *"Mr. Gray" (I _think_ that's his
last name?) for said teacher, only "Zach".  In all the other classes I know
of this'd be unheard of, usually it's "Mr. so-and-so" (or the appropriate
woman's title).  I don't think I hear "professor" used much, but I don't
think it would be out of place...

> From:    Dan Sulani <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Novel, Novella (was Re:      Re: I'm new!)
>
>     "Novella", over here, is currently associated with the
> endless Spanish-language soap operas, called "tele-novellas",
>  which we're now getting on our TVs. ( My son thinks it's a great
> way to learn Spanish, although I sometimes wonder what kind of
> a vocabulary he's picking up! ;-)  )

"Novelas" are also what my (Cuban) grandmother refers to her (American) soap
operas as.

> From:    Vasiliy Chernov <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Montreiano Orthography
>
> >Well, i was trying to come up with a solution that wasnt like the other
> >romance langs. Christophe suggested i could turn /E/ and /O/ to /e:/ and
> >/o:/. So, would they instead really be the diphthongs you suggested?
>
> My point was that a system with five short vowels and only two long ones
> doesn't look especially natural - while I'm sure a natlang precedent
> can be found for that, too... ;)

The ancient Greek alphabet did it (although the ancient Greek language did
not...)

> From:    Mangiat <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: R:      Re: I'm new!
>
> > In Swedish, a short story is called 'novell' and a novel is
> > called "roman". Confusing, isn't it? :)
>
> Same in Italian ('novella' and 'romanzo'). It's English which caused the
> false friend, IMO, since in German they have 'Roman' for novel (ok, ok,
they
> have Kurzgeschichte as well, but that's an English calque)

English has 'roman' in 'bildungsroman' "coming of age story".
(In German apparently that's "Entwicklungsroman", ...)

> From:    Andrew Chaney <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: HTML advice (was: Re: Hello, I'm new too)
>
> > Or give it margins. To cater for different browsers with different
> > tastes, you need both the <marginwidth> and <leftmargin> attributes.
> > which do the same thing:
> >
> > <body marginwidth="50" leftmargin="50">
>
> marginwidth and leftmargin are are not part of the HTML 4.0 standard.
> check out: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-BODY
> I try to stick to the W3.org standards in my HTML code. That way,
> theoretically, my HTML should look the same on any browser that
> also respects the HTML 4.0 standard.

(O that such an animal existed!  Actually I pine more for a fully
CSS-compliant browser, but if people like Microsoft insist on adding one
measly feature at a time, "in *this* version we've added _drop caps_, aren't
we sensational?"...  Yeah, I know, Mozilla, but it's quirky on my computer.)

> From:    jesse stephen bangs <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: IPA (Was: Re: Hello, I'm new too)
>
> > Remember that IPA is not meant to represent every *possible*
distinction,
> > but only every *necessary* distinction in existent languages.  For
example,
> > [j] represents both the approximant of English "yes" and the fricative
> > of (some kinds of) Spanish "yo", because no known language makes a
phonemic
> > distinction between these sounds.  If one were found, a new symbol would
> > be introduced into IPA.
>
> Huh?  I've always thought that the curly-tailed [z] was the correct IPA
> symbol for the Spanish sound.  It's a voiced palatal fricative, just
> barely different from the voiced palatal approximant [j].  I care because
> my conlang has a phonemic difference between them!  Any more info on this?

Curly-tailed z is an alveopalatal fricative.  Curly-tailed j (sampa [j\]) is
a palatal fricative, the sound in [my] Spanish.  [j] is the lazy way of
representing [j\] in Spanish transcriptions just as [r] is for [r\](?) in
English ones.  Since there's not a difference within the language, shortcuts
can be taken.

> From:    "H. S. Teoh" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: IPA griefs
>
> [snip]
> > IPA doesn't have separate symbols for dental and alveolar /t/--a major
> > flaw, IMO.
>
> Really? The IPA transcription page (the one that lists four ASCII
> transcriptions -- sorry, don't have the URL handy) includes separate
> symbols for dental and alveolar /t/ -- though the dental isn't really a
> separate symbol, but just /t/ with a dental diacritic (Kirsch = /t[/).

The "bridge below" diacritic (like [ turned with its points down) indicates
dentalization.  It's not a feature of the /t/ symbol itself.

> From:    Adrian Morgan <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: CHAT: "Mister"  (WAS: Re: New Lang: Igassik)
>
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, John Cowan wrote:
>
> > "Professor". There are rather more professors in North American
> > colleges and universities than elsewhere (and a multiplicity of deans
> > to boot), but even so, not everyone who teaches bears that title
> > legitimately.
>
> I know that 'professor' in American English doesn't mean 'the head of a
> university department' which is the meaning elsewhere ... and I know that
> 'college' is used to mean what I would call 'university' ... and I even
> know - because my American friends have told me - that American
> universities have special names for student year levels instead of just
> 'first year', 'second year', 'third year' as it is here ...
>
> ... but this I don't know. What exactly is a dean? We don't have them.

At my school anyway deans are the adults in charge of the dormitories.
"Dean" also appears to mean the head of one of the schools of the
university, like your "professor".

> From:    Adrian Morgan <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: IPA griefs
>
> > In hackish slang, we have "adger" (to wreck something as a result
> > of an elementary mistake), which is a minimal pair with "azure".
>
> I've never heard either of those words pronounced (I've never heard of
> 'adger' and I've only seen 'azure' in print), but I've always assumed the
> latter to be stressed on the second syllable?

So also have I assumed, but my dictionary disagrees with me.

> From:    Andrew Chaney <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: CHAT: "Mister"  (WAS: Re: New Lang: Igassik)
>
> > and I know that
> > 'college' is used to mean what I would call 'university' ...
>
> A university is divided into several colleges (The College of Engineering,
> The College of Math, C of Liberal Arts, C of the Arts, &c).  Colleges are
> then further subdivided into Departments (The Department of Mechanical
Engineering,
> The Dept. of Civil Eng., The Dept. of Electrical Eng., &c).

A college is also an institution that only serves undergraduate and not
postgraduate degrees.  My college became a university while I was here.
Most of the college's major "departments" were upgraded to the university's
"schools" (art department -> School of Visual Arts and Design)

     *Muke!

{1} The tree of Hadwan type languages looks something like this:

                       Proto-Hadwan (middle east/caucasus, centuries BC)
                            |
               --------------------------------
               |                              |
            Hadwan (Greece, early AD)     [? "eastern"]  (Tibet, China,
Japan)
               |
      -----------------------------------------
      |                                       |
(Atlantic) (Iberia, Medit., middle ages)    [? "northern"] (Eastern Europe)
      |
(Modern Atlantic) (same, contemporary)
      |
[? "future"]  (Mars, 500+ years from now)
      |
[? "creole"]  (same, Hadwan-English creole)

(parentheses) are languages that have some work on them done
[brackets] are languages that I know "must" be there, but have no
information on (yet).
--
http://muke.twu.net/

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January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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