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CONLANG  November 2000, Week 1

CONLANG November 2000, Week 1

Subject:

Re: YACL: Thylean (alternate-history)

From:

Christophe Grandsire <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:16:51 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (220 lines)

En réponse à Oskar Gudlaugsson <[log in to unmask]>:

> Thanks to all for positive comments,
>

You're welcome!

>
> My sudden interest in Latin is due to the fact that I'm studying it at
> school. I've studied it before, but that was in class, where nothing is
> ever accomplished. Now I'm a, what's it called, a out-of-school-student,
> i.e. I do my studies on my own. That way I can finally use the time I'd
> waste in classes to actually learn stuff. So, I'm all crazy for
> Classical
> Latin and wanted to make a conlang out of it that wouldn't just be Y A
> Romance Lang. Which could best be accomplished by having the conlang
> separate from the Latin community before the VL stage really takes off.
> Such as Sardinian kind of did (that's a funny Romance lang - check it
> out
> if you haven't).

Do you know an URL where I can see some grammatical stuff about Sardinian? It's
not the only time I hear that Sardinian is really a funny Romance tongue, but I
could never check it out by myself (and grammar books are right now far too
expensive for my bank account :(( ).

>
> Before I read the replies to my post, I'd already consulted an excellent
> French book on Latin's phonological history, qui s'appelle "La
> phonétique
> historique du latin". There I had my suspicions on the final m
> confirmed.
> So lots of things need to be rethought, though I was quite prepared to
> drop
> the final m from the beginning. It strikes me how deceptive CL spelling
> actually was, i.e. that lots of words weren't actually pronounced as
> they
> were written. I don't know what to make of it, if I should start
> pronouncing CL more correctly, which might make my fellow students and
> my
> teacher balk, or just read literally anyway.
>

Just read literally, at least at school :) . But when you're at home, do what
you like, just like me :)) .

> I particularly liked Cristophe's positive feedback - merci Cristophe! :)
>

You're welcome :)

> On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:23:17 +0100, Christophe Grandsire
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >Having carefully read this post, yes I do! Welcome in the club of
> Romance
> >conlangs inventors :)
>
> It's an honour :)
>

:)) Padraic, Andrew, Barry, myself and of course all the other ones that I'm
forgetting are kindly inviting you to the ceremony of acceptance in the Romance
Conlangers' Society :)))))

> >
> >Interesting, no voiced stops, no voiceless /P T x/, /f/ but /B/. I'm
> wondering
> >about the stability of such a distribution. What do you all think?
>
> You're right. I've rethought this:
>
> /p t k/
> /v D G/
> /l m n N r/
> /f T s S x/
> /j/
>
> As you noted below, /T/ and /x/ should also be phonemes, so they're
> included. I decided that /B/ appeared only in transition, but then
> shifted
> to pair with /f/. /w/ subsequently merged with /v/, as it has widely
> done
> in Spanish AFAIK.
>

And in Old French. /w/ was subsequently reintroduced in the language later,
mostly in contact with Frankish.

>
> I'd rather not call it oblique, as acc is not included in it. Dative is
> fine yes. Perhaps 'relative'? (seems to describe the common theme of
> gen/dat/abl together)
>

Nice name, you could go for it or have a few prescriptivist grammarians in your
Thyle who would keep the name "dative" to keep the link with their Latin
ancestry :)) .

> >Pretty much the evolution of VL to Old French.
>
> Interesting...tell me more!
>

The reduction of cases between VL and Old French didn't come from sound changes
(even if the sound changes like /u/ -> /o/ and /i/ -> /e/, as well as the
disappearance of the -m of the accusative, helped a lot), but more from common
uses between cases. First the vocative disappeared completely in favor of the
nominative, the ablative in favor of the accusative (by neutralisation of the
difference between UBI and QUO, difference marked by prepositions instead of
cases), the genitive was absorbed by the dative (because of their common uses)
while the dative, mostly identical to the ablative and thus to the accusative,
finally merged with the latter, leaving only the opposition
nominative-accusative (called "subject" and "regime" cases). Also, some
reamenagements took place: 1st decl. nom. pl. -ae became -as (identical to the
accusative, that's why in Old French feminine nouns didn't mark the distinction
in case in plural), 3rd decl. nom pl. -es became -i (by alignment to the 2nd
decl., as if a distinction which was not made anymore by feminine words had to
be made by masculine ones). It finally led to a system where the only mark of
case (except some radical changes depending on the accent and other sound
changes) was -s, used sometimes in strange ways. For instance, the type "murs":
wall:
                  sing. plur.
Subject case: murs mur
Regime case: mur murs

Strange isn't it? And for other types of nouns it's generally worse :)) . You
can easily understand why such a system didn't last long :)) (if the two cases
had been marked better, they surely would have stayed a lot longer :) ).

> >Why not the common /ae/ -> /as/ replacement of the 1st decl. nom. pl.?
> Wasn't it
> >already appearing in Caesar's time in spoken Latin? Or maybe /ae/ ->
> /e/, I
> >don't remember seeing a sound change of /ae/ in your phonology.
>
> Actually, I didn't have any sound change for /ai/, except I merged /oi/
> with it. But you're right, I don't like /ai/ as an ending. Nom. pl. in
> -as?
> That might just be it...yes, it's all forming in my mind now... nom. pl.
> of
> 1st and 2nd declensions shall be -as and -us, the same as the
> accusatives.
> No plural will make distinction between nom and acc...ok, read on, I'll
> summarize below...
>

Not far from Old French, as I explained :) .

>
> I kind of like the super-vocative idea, but only for animates. Seeing an
> inanimate in vocative form just looks too silly to me. Final m is gone,
> so
> let's review:
>
> Sing. Pl.
> 2nd decl (animate)
>
> nom serve servus 'male slave'
> acc servo servus
> rel servu servis
>
> 2nd decl (inanimate)
>
> nom ladio ladius 'sword'
> acc ladio ladius
> rel ladiu ladis
>

I like the fact that neuter nouns keep in singular the same feature as in Latin:
they don't mark the difference between nominative and accusative.

> 1st decl
>
> nom serva servas 'female slave'
> acc serva servas
> rel serva servis
>

He he, it seems that Thylean is like Old French in considering that feminine
nouns don't need as many distinctions as masculine nouns :)) .

> 3rd decl
>
> nom neave neavis 'ship'
> acc neave neavis (/æ/ from CL /a:/
> rel neavi neavios is spelled 'ea')
>
> Obviously, the acc is by now only rarely distinctive from the nom, in
> fact
> only in 2nd decl animates. Yet those aren't that rare at all, and I
> think
> the distinction could reasonably thrive, as mostly an animate-inanimate
> distinction.
>

I agree. If you keep the three genders, then the nominative and accusative
should stay different. But you could also think of a later development of
Thylean where neuter nouns would be abandoned, merging with masculine nouns. In
this case, the nominative and accusative would certainly merge too, and you
would have a neat two-case system: nom.-acc., and relative. So direct
participants of the verb (subject and object) would be marked the same way,
while indirect participants (and possessors :) ) would have another marking.
Seems very reasonable to me :) .

>
> >I think it would be wiser to drop it from the declensions, unless some
> kind of
> >hypercorrection (maybe due to some partisan of purity of language like
> Cicero)
> >would put it back in use. That's unlikely, but not impossible.
>
> I intented to make this a puritan kind of Latin, but I'm kind of
> digressing
> from that, with really simple declensions and all...
>

Still, you could try and keep puritanity for the conjugations :))) (imagine:
keeping the old Latin future forms :) ).

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July 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
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May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
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April 2004, Week 1
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February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 3
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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September 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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