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CONLANG  November 2000, Week 2

CONLANG November 2000, Week 2

Subject:

Re: "Roumant", or whatever it may be called. Part V

From:

Dan Jones <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:59:21 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (232 lines)

Christophe Grandsire wrote:


> Well, two weeks ago I promised I would tell about verbs in
> "Roumant", so here it is!

Hooray!

> THE VERB:
[snip description of conjugations. Isn't this similar to the way French is
taught in France?]


> The simple tenses:
> There are nine simple tenses, corresponding to 4 personal moods:
> - the indicative present,
> - the indicative imperfect,
> - the indicative simple past,

How often is this used? Is it used rarely, like French, or as the stanard
past tense, as in Spanish?

> - the indicative future,
> - the subjunctive present,
> - the subjunctive imperfect,
> - the subjunctive future,
> - the conditional present,
> - the imperative present.
> Note the existence of a subjunctive future.

Noted.

> The indicative present:
> It's formed from the radical (infinitive without the ending) to
> which are added
> different endings for the different persons, and different from
> each group (the
> order is obviously: 1sg, 2sg, 3sg, 1pl, 2pl, 3pl):
> - 1st group verbs: -e, -as, -at, -ams, -s, -am
> - 2nd group verbs: -e, -es, -et, -ems, -s, -em
> - 3rd group verbs: -ie, -ies, -iet, -issims, -isss, -issim

Very "Old French-esque"!

> The indicative imperfect:
> It's also formed from the radical to which special endings are added:
> - 1st group: -v, -vs, -vt, -vams, -vs, -vam
> - 2nd group: -v, -vs, -vt, -vams, -vs, -vam
> - 3rd group: -issv, -issvs, -issvt, -issvams, -issvs, issvam
>
> The indicative simple past:
> It's also formed from the radical, to which special endings are added:
> - 1st group: -ai, -ass, -, -me, -te, -re
> - 2nd group: -, -ess, -, -me, -te, -re
> - 3rd group: -, -iss, -, -me, -te, -re
> It's the tense most full of irregularities.

Details? Irregularities as in French past historic, where it seems to be
derived from the ppt of irregular verbs?

> The indicative future:
> It's formed from the infinitive (from which the circonflex accent
> and the final
> -e are dropped) to which are added the endings of the auxiliary
> avre in the
> indicative present:
> - -, -s, -, -oms, -s, -om
> This formation is common to most Western Romance langs. Note that
> the verbs like
> volle drop their -e and add an -r before the endings, so that the
> future radical
> is for volle: vollr-. This tense is the most regular of all.
>
> The subjunctive present:
> It is formed from the radical to which the following endings are added:
> - 1st and 2nd group: -e,-es, -et, -ioms, -is, -iom
> - 3rd group: -isse, -isses, -isset, -issioms, -issis, -issiom
> Note that the 1st and 2nd group don't have different endings for
> this tense.
>
> The subjunctive imperfect:
> It is formed using the 2nd person sg. of the indicative simple
> past (the form
> ending in -ss) as a radical, to which are added the endings of
> the subjunctive
> present for the 1st and 2nd group. Note that it makes subjunctive
> present and
> imperfect identical for verbs of the 3rd group, except for the
> 1pl and 2pl where
> the stress position is different.
>
> The subjunctive future:
> It is formed from the same base as the indicative future, to
> which are added the
> endings of the verb avre in subjunctive present (in fact the
> same endings as
> the 1st and 2nd groups).

I like this! It's completely logical, too! Why didn't other Romance langs do
this too?

> The conditional present:
> It is formed from the same base as the indicative future, to
> which are added the
> endings of the verb avre in the indicative imperfect:
> - -v, -vs, -vt, -vams, -vs, -vam
>
> The imperative present:
> It exists only for the second person (singular and plural), the
> other persons
> being filled with subjunctive present forms. It is formed by adding the
> following endings to the radical:
> - 1st group: -, -e, -, -, -te, -
> - 2nd group: -, -e, -, -, -te, -
> - 3rd group: -, -ie, -, -, -isste, -
>
> The impersonal forms:
> There are four impersonal forms (one one which is already explained): the
> infinitive, the present participle, the past participle and the gerund.

Gerund? As in Latin- a sort of "future participle"?.

> The present participle:
> For regular verbs, it is formed from the radical to which is added:
> - 1st group: -ant
> - 2nd group: -ent
> - 3rd group: -issint
> It can be used as an adjective, which thus agrees in gender and
> number with the
> noun it completes.
>
> The past participle:
> It's formed from the radical to which is added:
> - 1st group: -t
> - 2nd group: -t
> - 3rd group: -t
> It also can be used as an adjective, and also agrees in gender
> and number with
> the noun it completes.

Almost exacly the same as Arveunan, only the "2nd group", the -re verbs has
the ppt. -t.

> The gerund:
> It's an adverbial form, which is simply formed like an adverb

Consider above question answered. Can it be used like Latin, though, as in
"quod erat demonstrandum"?

> from the present
> participle:
> - 1st group: -ammente
> - 2nd group: -emmente
> - 3rd group: -issint (the form -issimmente is usually not used)
>
> The compound tenses:
> To each simple tense, there is a corresponding compound tense,
> formed for every
> verb by conjugating the auxiliary avre in the corresponding simple tense,
> followed by the (invariable) past participle of the verb. Those different
> compound tenses are:
> - the indicative perfect,
> - the indicative pluperfect,
> - the indicative past perfect,
> - the indicative future perfect,
> - the subjunctive perfect,
> - the subjunctive pluperfect,
> - the subjunctive future perfect,
> - the conditional perfect,
> - the imperative perfect.
> It is also possible to form an infinitive perfect (avre + past
> participle), a
> perfect participle (eiyent + past participle) and a perfect
> gerund (eiyemmente +
> past participle), but those forms are hardly ever used.

Quickie here: does Roumant use the double compound past tense (a a eu pay)
or the "aprs avoir" construction? IIRC Henriette Walter mentions in "Le
franais dans tous les sens" that the doupe compund is used very frequently
in the south.

> The passive voice:
> Like in French and other modern Romance tongues, the passive
> voice, when it
> exists (that's to say, only with transitive verbs) is formed by
> adding the past
> participle (which then behaves like a predicate adjective and
> thus agrees in
> gender and number with the subject) to the auxiliary stre: to be
> conjugated in
> the chosen tense.

Also uses reflexive verbs to for a "pseudo-passive", yes? As in Spanish
Italian and indeed, your own mother tongue. Why are all these questions
about usage?

[snip conjugation tables- fascinating. Gods I'm so sad, I think conjugation
tables are exciting- I need to get out more!]

> I think I will
> anyway make a special post for re, avre and stre, because they are very
> particular even among irregular verbs (especially re whose
> complete conjugation
> comes in fact from the collapsing of four different verbs!).

Ben, c! Grasias!

> Right now I'm waiting for your comments on this part. If you
> want, I will post
> more verbal paradigms, or I will go to other parts, like the
> prepositions, the
> negation (a very interesting feature in "Roumant") and the
> numerals. Or I can do
> both if you want :) .

Yes please! I want more! <Dan the masochist jumps up and down in a hysteric
overload of Romance languages>

Dan, who has been speaking French all day and is thoroughly sick of it.

>
> Christophe.
>



-----------------------------------------------------------
cuebra um derot a zi sem,
Break a piece of wood and I am there,
                                            cuoca um perro tu me meitera
  Dan Jones                         Lift a rock and you will find me

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July 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
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May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
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April 2004, Week 1
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February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 3
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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September 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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