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AUXLANG  May 2001, Week 4

AUXLANG May 2001, Week 4

Subject:

A needed correction.

From:

auliuniv <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 25 May 2001 15:54:03 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (195 lines)

In July 23 1948, Dr. Martinet explained the number of words to be in the
IALA dictionary. And, I correctly quoted the statement he made, which is:

""Li final lingue va esser inter li variantes M e C. On elabora un liste de
ca. 7000 paroles secun li dictionarium de Thorndike. (Ti dictionarium
classifica li paroles secun lor gradu de frequentie). 3000 es paroles
(notiones) basic e 4000 derivates regulari del anteyan 3000 paroles
(conceptes).

This was said in July, 1948. In July 1949 this is what Dr. Gode said in a
letter of July 15, 1949.

"Mi conditiones ha essite adoptate. E mi responsa ha essite un promissa
solemne e definitive de compler le manuscripto de nostre prime dictionario -
INCLUDANTE plus que 20 milles parolas organisate secundo le structura
schematic del lingues natural - ante le fine del anno currente."

Now, I asked where did these 20,000 words come from, since Martinet only
mentioned 7000. Then, as you all know, p. 48 of the 1945 General Report was
mentioned. It is clear here in the GR that 20,000 words are mentioned, in
1945. And, Dr. Gode is listed as the Director of Linguistic Research at the
time the report was made, i.e. 1945.

So, wondering why Martinet missed this, or didn't explain it I went back to
read further his comments in 1948, a year earlier. Well, it appears he
didn't miss them, I did. Here is what I overlooked.

"Finalmen, li lexico basic va contener ca. 4000-6000 paroles. It es omni
NE-TECHNIC notiones comun a quar ex li six grand lingues europan e
comprendet del Americanos e Europanes de medial culturs.

[Now, here is what I missed.] Poy, on va cuidar pri LI TECNIC VOCABULARIUMS,
ma interim, on va posser ja usar li international nomenclatura."

Here I think is where the link is for the 20000 words, since Martinet says
tecnic vocabulariums, which were probably planned to be presented
separately, with the 1945 Report comments: ...we have in our present
compilation many words for a general vocabulary [probably the 7000] and ALSO
many words from the sciences, arts and other fields.

So, this should help clear up the conflict I felt was going on in 1948 with
the 20000 words coming in later. That isn't so. It is obvious that there was
a list of 20,000 words being worked on by 1945.

Now, the question still is, where did the change come from after the
1936-1939 time frame when IALA did not have a method of derivation. We know
it was not there in 1936. But, it is obvious a change occured between 1939
and 1943. They came up with a method of derivation. From where?

First, IALA still copied the basic word list using Occidental, to me that
hasn't changed one iota.

So, to go along with the 1936 Annual Report of IALA, which everyone already
knows about, here is what was reported in 1936 by Cosmoglotta.

I. Conferentie in Copenhag
In fine de august 1936 IALA... arangeat in Copenhag un Conferentie por
interessar linguistes, queles in sam témpor havet un congress.....

Six systemas lucta in li semifinale por li monopole del Lingue
International: [these are the ones listed in the 1936 AR] 1. Esperanto I
(Zemenhof); 2 Esperanto II (Saussure); 3. Ido; 4 Novial; 5. Occidental; 6.
Latino sine Flexione. [So, so far the Occidentalists listed these
accurately. Now, consider this, which seems to be skimmed over by those who
don't want it to be so.]

Por chascun del lingues esset fat textus comparativ, tabelles comparativ del
conjugationes, del numerales e questiones pri témpor e etá, del radicas de
origine germanic e slav. [the last two thrown out by IALA/Gode? ;-)]

It esset un ampli labor fat per un accuratess, conscientie, amore al cose, e
in MULT casus con MINUCIOSI DETALIES, por quel on debi a prof. Collinson
sincer mersi.

....

Noi repeti que noi altissimmen admira li cuida pri detalies, specialmen in
li numerales queles sol plena un tot caderne. In li synoptica pri radicas de
origine germanic o slav on vell in quelc casus posser discusser li
leyitimitŕ del attribution, li gradu del similitŕ. Ma to ne importa.

Ma nor vise-punctu es absolutmen different, si noi considera li labor de
prof. Collinson secun su completitŕ, si noi considera lu negativ: i.e. to
quo prof. Collinson NE ha tractat: [I am going to capitalize the next
sentence as that is what is done in Cos. only in bold letters to emphasize
the problem.]

IN LI AMPLI MATERIALE, QUEL TRACTA LI NUMERALES, LI CONJUGATION, LI
QUESTIONES PRI TÉMPOR E ETŔ CON UN ABUNDANTIE DE DETALIES, NOI NE TROVAT NUL
CAPITUL, NUL PAROL, NI UN MENTION PRI LI *DERIVATION*. IT ES QUAM SI TI
PROBLEMA NE EXISTE. TO ES ASTONANT PRO QUE LI PROBLEMA DEL DERIVATION ES UN
QUESTION CARDINAL, IN LI DECISION PRI LI VALORE DEL SINGUL SYSTEMAS DE
LINGUE INTERNATIONAL.

Then the article mentions that before the meeting de Wahl told Ilmari Federn
that there would be no materials at the meeting on DERIVATION. And, sure
enough, that is exactly what happened. When the materials were finally
distributed, there was nothing on derivation.

When put on the spot about this by prof. v. Sydow, Prof Debrunner responded:
que ti question es tro complicat (!) que it ducte tro for (!) que ne esset
témpor tractar it, que it es un tema desfacil, quel postula long studies
special. Noi consent a to: sr. de Wahl ha laborat durant 30 annus por dar it
li solution, quel hodie por nos _sembla tam simplic e self-evident_.

Ok, so we know in 1936 IALA had no method of derivation. But, sometime
during 1939, or after, they "found" one. An ILaist has even mentioned
something along this line.

Now, it just so happens that in 1939 Cosmoglotta began to present a series
on "Li Genese de Occidental". This was a series including articles by de
Wahl on how he had worked to build Occidental. ;-)

I wish I could present the whole thing, but it's too long. However, this
little interesting inserted comment is well, very interesting. Again, 1939,
which seems to be some kind of target year for growth in IALA's method of
derivation. ;-)

"Li redaction de Cosmoglotta es felici posser annunciar que desde nu it va
secun necessitá e ocasion posser publicar extrates de valore permanent ex li
corespondentie de Edgar de Wahl, in reviset traduction a modern Occidental.
E noi permisse nos invitar a lor studie **tut specialmen li colaboratores de
IALA,*** queles ha proposit se quam tache quasi repetir li labores e del
delegation e DE SENIOR DE WAHL. [now I will all cap the next sentence.] NOI
NE DÚBITA QUE CI ILI VA TROVAR UN STUDIE-MATERIALE DE CONSIDERABIL UTILITÁ E
QUEL VA ECONOMISAR LES UN PARTE DE DUPLIC LABOR. [nice, eh? And, IALA begins
after 1939 to make some real headway with "word derivation". They even "come
up" with a three language system for finding words.] May, 1939 p. 37.

Now, in 1939 who were the colaboratores de IALA working on the word
lists??????

p. 5 1939 Annual Report.

RESEARCH STAFF
Office at New York
Linguistic Research Associate and Director of Educational Research
Helen S. Eaton, diplomee Sorbonne

[now notice]
Research Assistant
***Alexander Gode-von Aesch, Columbia, Ph.D.

[and notice who is in the univ of Liverpool staff when this material was
sent to the colaboratores of IALA. ;-) ]

Director
William E. Collinson, London, M.A.; Heidelberg, Ph.D.

*** Assistant Director and Secretary to Committee for Agreement
E. Clark Stillman, Michigan, M.A.

Research Assistants, etc, etc.

Hmmmm? Mr. Stillman and Dr. Gode, one in England, one in New York, receiving
material from Cosmoglotta on how de Wahl did it, in 1939. And, then the two
colaborated together in New York in 1940/1 on, great, eh? .....

Now, in 1940 the Research Staff in New York included Stillman and Dr. Gode,
among some others.
Also, reference Eaton's list and the building of IALA's language, and her
statement about using Occidental list for correction purposes, this should
be interesting.

p. 9 1940 AR, "The Semantic Frequency List, in manuscript form, HAS BEEN
USED FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS by IALA's research staff in the intricate work
of extracting THE BASIC ROOTS FOR THE VOCABULARY of the language IALA will
recommend for international use. In manuscript there are supplements,
namely, correlated columns in Esperanto, Ido, and, in part, in Occidental."

So, there is no place anywhere that links Occidental with the building of
basic word roots in ILa, eh? ILa certainly did not come out as a form of
Esperanto or Ido, now did it? And, no other word lists are mentioned
anywhere that I know of while doing this process of basic root extraction.

Ok, nuff.

I think it is important to correct my error on the 20,000 word list not
being there in 1948 and not let it hang out there.

I think though, that in reality, the rest is pretty clear. Occidental is the
basis of ILa, whether they want to label it a generic synopsis of languages,
or whatever. It is 95% Occidental, and there is a reason for that.

If you've read this far, thanks, and hope you are having a great day.

Cordialmen,
Bob, x+O~


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December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 5
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October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
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October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 1
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August 2001, Week 1
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June 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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