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CONLANG  June 2001, Week 2

CONLANG June 2001, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Latin loans in Welsh

From:

[log in to unmask]

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:25:57 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (120 lines)

On Fri, 8 Jun 2001, andrew <[log in to unmask]> wrote :

>> boch -  bucca
> lla fuch, llo fuch - mouth
Now means "cheek" in W.

>> maneg - manica
> maneg, lla faneg, llo faneg - sleeve; lla Faneg - the Channel
Means "glove, gauntlet" in WCB

>> pais - pexa
> This one is new to me.  It starts off as a substantive meaning woollen
> and ends up meaning coat or petticoat

"petticoat" in modern W. but seems to have had a more general meaning in
middle W.
The Cornish equivalent _pows_ means "coat, gown, tunic, dress,
suit of clothes" rather like the various meanings of "dress" in English
"pows neuvye" = swimsuit.
Doesn't seem to have surived in Breton.

>> pared pl. parwyd(ydd) - paries ~ parie:t-
>>    (it looks like the W. pl. was based on the Latin and
>>                        the s. derived from it in W.)
> I had paruid in a list, but I'll take note of the singular form as well.
Maybe best ignored, it's irregular. _parwyd_ is found in Middle W.

>> trawstr - /tra:strum/ << transtrum
> trastr, ill trastr, llo thrastr - beam
In particular a joist or cross-beam.

>> esgyn - ascend-
> The last one is new and noted.
You can add your equivalent of _d(i)esgyn_ "come/go down, dismount"

>> ffin - fi:nis
> So competing with terminus did not drive this word out after all.
Terfyn usually means an end in time, or in an abstract sense;
Ffin is a physical limit or boundary. "Dros y ffin" = over the border

>> peddyd - pedites
> Which means?
Foot-soldier, peasantry

>> peddestr - pedestres
= pedestrian (as on road signs etc.)

> What's the distinction between mur, pared and magwyr?
Mur is a substantial wall of stone etc. load-bearing wall of building;
Pared is a partition, internal stud-wall etc. probably wood etc.
Magwyr in W. is "wall enclosure"
in C. "magor" is "ruin"
in B. "moger" seems to be the usual word for "wall".
So perhaps originally something like "a system of walls or enclosures" ??

and "ffos" is an earth bank and/or ditch (when you make one you generally
get the other) cf. the ambiguous use of "dike" in English to mean either a
bank/stone-wall or a ditch. (Dike is of course just a northern form of
"ditch" without AS palatalisation of the /k/ like kirk ~ church,
rigg ~ ridge etc.)

>> ysgrifen - scribenda
> Another one I haven't seen before.
Means a written note or memorandum, but not long or important enough to
warrant the status of "dogfen" - document, legal deed etc.

> I was surprised with the preference for -ai- due to VCi -> ViC where I
> would have expected -oi- or -ei-.
Middle W. <ei> from whatever source gives Modern W. <ai> in final syllables
and monosyllables, that is where it was stressed in OW before the
accent shifted to the penult. So there must have been some difference
in Mid.W. even though not shown in writing.
Final i-affection of /o/ gives /ei/ >> /ai/ (not /oi/). Perhaps the
sound was something like [@j] to start with.
n.b. i-affection is mainly raising or diphthongising (with the above
exception) and shouldn't really be confused with umlaut which is the
fronting of (rounded) back vowels to give rounded front vowels.

> - andrew.

Just to summarise, mainly in response to Ray's post, here's what happened
to the Latin vowels in Welsh (secondary developments in brackets) ignoring
various special cases :

Short vowels :

i >> I, (e)
e >> e, (I)
a >> a, (ei, ai, e)
o >> o, (ei, ai, y)
u >> u <w>, (o, I)

(In W. /I/ is a centralised [I] or [@], it merged with /e/ in Breton)

Long vowels

i: >> i
e: (borrowed as [ej]) >> u:j <wy> (Breton <oua, oue> etc.
a: >> aw, o     (Breton eu,e)
o: (borrowed as [ow] >> [oy] >> [y] <u>
u: as /o:/ above.

(In Modern W. /y/ <u> has become unrounded and centralised and has
merged with /I/ but is still distinguished in writing)

Rarely Latin /o:/ gave W. /aw/

All these developments are the same as for the native sounds. The main
difference being that Latin /u:/ missed the boat as far as British
/u:/ >> /y:/ >> /i/ goes, and had to join up with
/ew, ow, aw/ >> /oy/ >> /y/ <u> (the diphthong /oj/ also joined in this
development IE,CC /oinos/ >> W. <un> cf. OI <oen>

The point being that WCB all replace the British/Latin quantity
distinctions by quality distinctions, but I think, in rather a different
way from Vulgar Latin. The reflexes of long and short vowels on the
whole stay separate, only W. /o/ could come from either /a:/ or /o/.

Keith

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