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AUXLANG  July 2001, Week 2

AUXLANG July 2001, Week 2

Subject:

Re: im a newbie and got a question

From:

claudio <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

claudio <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:00:00 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (137 lines)

hi !
does esperanto offer both dualism-extremes or just one of them as
affix derivation ?
and when it does, which extreme is given the root word and which is
derived, is there any system which to chose as root ?
or in easier words:
how came zamenhof to the decision to derive cold from hot instead of
hot from cold?
however to handle with antonyms is not always easy, especially
with psychological terms.
heat/coldness are 2 sentimental extremes of the "hypernym" "percepted temperature",
its not the temperature itself, its the percepted temperature.

i really really reject the concept of antonym, since its often more a
feeling that a word is the opposite of another.
for the following reasons:

example: a place thats not dangerous is not safe, or is ?
         but when you dont remember something you have forgotten it.
         so sometimes negation=opposite, and sometimes its not.
         man and woman are antonyms ? if hes not a man he must be a woman.
         again here is the negation=opposite.

black and white antonyms ?
big and small antonyms ?
near and far antonyms ?
the only solution there is  to create hypernyms.
e.g. english got no hypernym for "open/close".
thats is a common problem. you have to choose on extrem to ask for the
hypernym: "how cold is it ?" and "how hot is it ?"
          "is it open or is it closed ?"


if you take the hypernym e.g. "luminance", we can state:
the extreme absence of luminance is "black",
but is the extreme presence of luminance "white" ?

you can say a door is either open or closed.
but what if the door is half-opened ? half-open=not-closed ?
a medium-marker is necessary.



regards,
c.s.
DJH> Je 08:49 atm 2001.07.08 +0200, claudio skribis
>>well i dont understand why you see "problems".
>>it was an popular example for a term i describe as "new term" or
>>"neoterm" and i wanted to ask whats the official word for it.
>>
>>first of all "unthirsty" or "undurstig" is not the same as "sitt",
>>which is the new term invented by our duden-society,
>>else it wouldnt be invented. so whats the difference ?
>>the difference lies not in meaning but in word-length
>>and word-character, an own underived, unaffixed word which is addionally
>>very similar
>>spelled to its neighbour-word "satt".
>>think of the dualism: hot/cold.
>>would you be satisfied if you had to express "heat" through a
>>negation-affix attached to "cold": un-cold ?
>>hot ~ un-cold

DJH> I think you have to distinguish between what you call a "negation-affix"
DJH> and what might be called an "antonym" affix. To give you an example:

DJH> Yesterday I led a group of some 20 Esperanto speakers from around half a
DJH> dozen countries on a hike down the west slope of Mt. Tamalpais (in
DJH> California) to the ocean. The weather was "nevarma" (using a
DJH> negation-affix); that means I didn't have to wear a hat to shield my head,
DJH> or put on sunblock, or stop to wipe the sweat off my forehead every few
DJH> meters. On the other hand, it was not "malvarma" (using an antonym-affix)
DJH> either; I left my coat in the trunk of my car, and did not feel at all
DJH> uncomfortable. Do you see the distinction?

DJH> The purpose of using affixes in the language is to give it the same sort of
DJH> superiority over other languages that use of the Latin alphabet (whether in
DJH> its English form, or extended) gives to typists over those who use, say,
DJH> Chinese. A competent Chinese typist is just as efficient at what he does as
DJH> a competent English typist; similarly, a competent speaker of a language
DJH> without affixes (where he has had to learn "thirsty" and "sitt") is as
DJH> efficient at receiving and proposing ideas (all other things being equal)
DJH> as a competent speaker of Esperanto. _On the other hand_, the use of the
DJH> Latin alphabet allows a _novice_ English typist to actually _type_
DJH> something useful, while the novice Chinese typist is still in the stage of
DJH> having to learn how his keyboard works, what keys correspond to which
DJH> glyphs, etc.; similarly, the novice speaker of a language without affixes
DJH> is still learning a basic vocabulary at the point at which the novice
DJH> speaker of Esperanto is _using_ the language, because instead of having to
DJH> learn a new word he already knows the _parts_ that go into making it up.
DJH> (Frankly, even if the distinction between ne- and mal- didn't exist in
DJH> Esperanto, I would still feel that this advantage would give me a sense of
DJH> satisfaction that I wouldn't -- yet -- in a language in which I had to
DJH> learn every word separately.)

>>but assumed you would create such derivations all over there in your
>>language, the question pops up: "which dualism-extreme shall i create as
>>root and which one as derivation?"
>>"cold/uncold or hot/unhot ?"
>>maybe the  more important/positive extreme as root, but what if both
>>extremes are equally important like hot/cold ?
>>you could create two different words for both to solve this task,
>>but it would be nice to create a similar spelling for both to express
>>their similarity.
>>the only solution is to create inflections.
>>zamenhoff ignored this and thats why esperanto is looking like
>>a huge experiment without pleasing structure for the mind

DJH> Actually, you want to _avoid_ having similar spellings for words with
DJH> closely related meanings -- otherwise, you're adding confusion to the
DJH> already difficult problem of memorization (e.g. make "hot" -> "hott" and
"cold" ->> "hitt" -- I, for one, am going to have a very hard time
DJH> remembering which is which. Unless, of course, you can create some type of
DJH> rule that tells you when to go from "o" to "i" in the middle of the word --
DJH> and in that case, I find the addition of "mal-" to be at least as easy to
DJH> learn. Not to mention the fact that you're restricting the amount by which
DJH> your basic word structure can vary. Incidentally, I think the Semitic
DJH> languages do something very like this.)

DJH> It's one 'f' in Zamenhof, by the way.


DJH> -- Don HARLOW
DJH> http://www.webcom.com/~donh/don/don.html

DJH> Branĉetoj nudaj
DJH> Antaŭ ĉiel' lazura
DJH> Lunon aĵuras.

DJH> Se vi serĉas...
DJH>    Novelojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Noveloj/
DJH>    Poemojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/
DJH>    Recenzojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Recenzoj/


"rurmlor entflöt, fluppseveri trimel akre wopel larf."
- alte redensart

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December 1998, Week 5
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