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CONLANG  November 2001, Week 2

CONLANG November 2001, Week 2

Subject:

Re: X-SAMPA { and }

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 9 Nov 2001 00:18:31 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (201 lines)

Lars Henrik Mathiesen <[log in to unmask]> writes:

> > Date:         Thu, 8 Nov 2001 01:38:31 +0100
> > From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg?= Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > Lars Henrik Mathiesen <[log in to unmask]> writes:
> >
> > > I'm not talking about using another system if X-SAMPA doesn't suit
> > > your needs --- noone can object to that.
> >
> > No.  For example, I find that X-SAMPA doesn't suit my needs when I am
> > going to present phonological data in e-mails (whether in CONLANG or
> > in private communication with friends) or on web pages, and thus
> > I don't use it.  After all, this application is AFAIK not what
> > X-SAMPA was made for anyway.
>
> Quoting from <URL:http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/x-sampa.htm>:
>
>     Using these codes, you can for example include IPA-phonetic
>     transcriptions of all kinds in e-mail messages or other forms of
>     electronic exchange. Wherever an IPA character set is not
>     available, X-SAMPA will provide a workable alternative.
>
> Straight from the keyboard of the designer. (It's not like that page
> is hard to locate, it's the first one Google finds when you search for
> X-SAMPA).

Well, the X-SAMPA page does not say that it is meant to be translated
to and from IPA by machine, but the SAMPA page gives this impression.
I have always seen SAMPA as a "machine-readable" rather than
"human-readable" encoding of IPA, useful to transmit IPA via e-mail,
and possibly also as a way to type IPA characters in an IPA editor.
But that is, I repeat, only my impression what the designers have
meant it for.  And anyway, to quote the chief engineer in the film
_Apollo 13_, "I don't want to know what something is made for,
I want to know what it can do!"

> > X-SAMPA is intended to be converted into actual IPA *automatically*,
> > or so I am told.
>
> It would be quite simple to do so, since the designer has in fact
> understood how to make a easily parsable code. (There's a nit or two,
> like the _ marking either diacritics or a tie bar, but there's no
> guesswork involved).
>
> But there doesn't seem to be anything out there to do so now.

I haven't seen a converter yet, either.  And that counts, if anything,
*against* X-SAMPA.  It is designed to be machine-readable, not
human-readable, but no-one has seen an X-SAMPA reading machine
(i.e., a conversion program) yet.  Bummer.

> Once I get something installed on my home system (FreeBSD 4.3) that
> will actually attempt to place random Unicode diacritics on IPA base
> characters, I fully intend to code up a perl script to convert between
> X-SAMPA and Unicode IPA.
>
> Which is one reason I'm arguing so hard for using the standard version
> of X-SAMPA: I don't want people complaining to me that they get small
> caps OE's instead of 's when they run someone else's pseudo-X-SAMPA
> through my converter.

You can do what you want, dumb people will try to feed just about
everything that's not X-SAMPA into your X-SAMPA converter and complain
that the result is garbage.  You can't stop them.  That's the GIGO
principle, known as long as there have been computers.  Or, as someone
once said, "computers are dumb, but sometimes, people are dumber".

> > I want an intuitive, easy-to-read (by *humans*, not conversion
> > software) system, which X-SAMPA is not.

Of course, it is an advantage if it is easy to convert automatically,
*ceteris paribus*.  But that shouldn't be hard to arrange.  All this
requires is the system to be unambiguous; no need to pick
non-intuitive character shapes.

> I don't think you'll get an intuitive system for phonetic notation.
> Even real IPA isn't intuitive. For phonemic, what's wrong with SAMPA?

When I say "intuitive", I mean that the first impression it gives when
seeing it should not be too far off the actual meaning of the symbols.
Most IPA characters do resemble well-known Roman (or Greek) letters,
and their phonetic value is usually not too far away from the "usual"
value of the letter the IPA symbol resembles most.  Of course you
still need to know the IPA chart in order to interpret it correctly,
but you get a meaningful impression from the first look.  You
instantly get some vague idea of how the sample might sound like, and
you won't be too far off.  This is not the case with X-SAMPA!
Many, many X-SAMPA symbols don't look like letters at all but like
random dingbats, and the first impression is that of line noise.
To take just a single example: the IPA barred-u looks similar to an u,
and one might guess that it represents some kind of u-like vowel
even without checking the IPA chart, and you are right.  It is a close
central rounded vowel, halfways between /u/ and /y/.  But the X-SAMPA
character [}] tells the reader *nothing* on the intuitive level.  You
instinctively start looking for the matching opening bracket.  Either
you find it (because there is a near-open front unrounded vowel
somewhere to the left of it), in which case it won't help, or not.
Why not choose something that looks more u-like, such as [*u]?
X-SAMPA would spell my first name phonemically as /j2rg/, phonetically
as [j9`g_0]; you might guess that the digits represent some kind of
vowels, but which?  Using a system I have concocted by myself, I would
write /j"org/ and [j"O^rg_h], and you could guess that the vowel is
somewhat "o-like", or, of you know that quite a number of languages
use an "o" with two dots on it for a mid front rounded vowel, that
the same is meant here, and you will be right.

I call this misleading and distracting.  This lack of intuituiveness
is fine for a conversion program that has no sense of intuition
anyway, but it makes it much harder to read for humans.

Of course, some other ASCII-IPA schemes have the same kind of
problems.  The Kirschenbaum choice of [K] for a voiceless lateral
fricative (or something like that) is misleading, no doubt; intuition
would tell you that it must be some kind of dorsal obstruent.
And that's just one example.

> > > I'm talking about people who find that X-SAMPA is exactly what they
> > > need, except that it would look so much nicer if we just made this
> > > teeny little change, the use of which will of course be intuitively
> > > obvious to everyone seeing the transcription.
> >
> > If people say they use X-SAMPA, they should strictly follow the
> > X-SAMPA standard.  But if they don't say they use X-SAMPA, they can do
> > what they want!  (As long whoever the message is meant for, still
> > understands what the author means.)
>
> > And if someone thinks that he doesn't like the way X-SAMPA does this
> > or that, he is free to change it, only that it is no longer X-SAMPA
> > then. But that doesn't hurt.
>
> Well, my argument is that it does hurt, by confusing readers and
> making it harder to collect data in consistent notations.

I admit that it would be easier if everybody used the same encoding,
but must we pick one of the most ugly and least human-readable schemes
in circulation?  Every system has its pros and cons; new systems will
be designed in the future.  Well, it is quite the same problem as with
IALs.

> > While X-SAMPA is *a* standard, it is (fortunately, IMHO) not *the*
> > standard on CONLANG.
>
> I have to admit that the proportion of people using SAMPA or X-SAMPA
> is now large enough that I've stopped trying to remember any other
> system. With the amount of traffic on the list now, any data given in
> Kirschenbaum or whatever provokes a why-bother reaction.

That's not a good reaction.  It is pretty much like, "I can design my
pages exclusively for the MicroSSoft Internet Exploder and put Word
documents on the web with impunity.  Of course the Linux/Unix/BSD
users won't be able to read them, but they are less than 10%; most
people use Windoze anyway, so why bother".  Of course, there is a
difference because the X-SAMPA people don't want to conquer the
world (at least not as far as I know).  They just suggested a solution
for a particular problem.  And I don't reject X-SAMPA because I find
it (or its creators) "evil"; I am just of the opinion that it has a
number of shortcomings that could have been avoided.  But people whose
posts are ignored (or even flamed against) merely because they use a
different encoding scheme won't be happy with that, no matter how nice
the X-SAMPA designers are.

Actually, I haven't really seen much X-SAMPA yet on CONLANG, unless you
count everything as X-SAMPA where only those symbols occur that are
the same in all ASCII-IPA schemes (which are quite many, including the
most commonly used ones).  Sure, "/a elbereT gilTo:niel/" *is* X-SAMPA,
but it is also Kirschenbaum, KPA, or whatever, and you can't tell
which system the author had in mind unless symbols unique to one
system occur.

And it also seems to me that those who find that certain X-SAMPA
symbols are poorly chosen ("{" and "}" are on the top of the list,
no doubt) by far outnumber those who actually, and consistently,
use X-SAMPA.  If one was to conduct a vote in CONLANG whether X-SAMPA
should be adopted as "official CONLANG standard", I am sure the NO
votes would outnumber the YES votes.

Of course, CONLANG doesn't stand alone in the world, there are many,
many other people in need of encoding IPA in ASCII; but even in this
greater world, X-SAMPA is far from being the universally established
standard.  The plurality of ASCII-IPA encoding schemes is a fact, and
will probably remain so as long as we need such encodings.
I'd guess that people won't settle on X-SAMPA (or anything
else) as a truly universal standard (whether de facto or de jure)
within the next 10 or 15 years - and by then, everybody will have
Unicode and we can all happily use actual IPA and throw all those
ASCII-IPA schemes away.

> For data in X-SAMPA-with-random-replacements, that reaction is only
> slightly delayed.

That's one reason why I don't like "X-SAMPA-with-random-replacements".
The other is that there is IMHO so much to change in X-SAMPA to make
it suitable for human-readable e-mail use that it is a better idea to
come up with an entirely new system.

And isn't the fact that there are so many "dialects" of X-SAMPA a
strong indicator that it *doesn't* satisfy the customers?

Jrg.

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July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
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July 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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