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AUXLANG  November 2001, Week 3

AUXLANG November 2001, Week 3

Subject:

Re: this/that in English vs tiu

From:

Kjell Rehnstrom <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 18 Nov 2001 07:55:43 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (119 lines)

"Donald J. HARLOW" wrote:

> (...) Not at all. You still need, for this particular use, morphemes for both
> "this" and "that", which are the equivalent of the Esperanto correlative
> beginning "ti-" and the particle "c^i".

Solo nunc ego comprendet ke il in fakt ha un differentie inter chi in chi tie e
chi- in chiam, chio, chiu etc. On pote argumentar ke esperanto ha un pluritate de
grammatiki artificies ke noi no vide in li grammatikilibres. Assi chi pausa, chi +
affix. (-am, -o, -u). Ma ke? Don ha _chikaze_. Konsekvento chi pote ser sekvati de
paus, un altri verbie (vorto) e tunk ha li signifikation de ci, in ti lok.

Cellus

>
> >>Zamenhof chose a somewhat different approach, however, and I think later
> >>history -- most notably, the cooption of "c^i" for use outside the
> >>correlative table -- has justified his choice.
> >>-- Don HARLOW
> >
> >There seems an assumption that Dr. Z was
> >incapable of error. And that his project
> >was totally consistent. I believe that there
> >was inadvertance involved.
>
> I don't quite follow what seem to me to be a series of non-sequiturs here.
> My statement simply says that Zamenhof made a choice, and that time and
> practice has justified that choice (though not necessarily invalidated
> other possible choices); I don't see how this can be translated into "Dr. Z
> was incapable of error". As to consistency, I've pointed out in this forum
> changes I would make to his language if I thought that changes were
> justified by other considerations than the desire to simply tinker with
> something that works. As to inadvertence, I suspect that this was -- with
> regard to the use of c^i outside the table of correlatives -- indeed the case.
>
> As an aside, I believe that Z.'s joint use of "c^i" as a particle
> indicating proximity and C^I- as a correlative prefix indicating
> universality was probably a mistake. Had Z. used, e.g., "*FI-" instead of
> "C^I-" for the second use, likely by today people would indeed be arguing
> over the validity of a new and unofficial correlative column in which, for
> instance, "c^ie" meant "here". The gains in concision would, however, be
> relatively minimal, though real; hence, again, I am _not_ proposing a reform.
>
> >I feel that the Eo. table was part of his
> >"linguistic juvenilia" (an early semi-Volapukic
> >stage) and it no longer fit the language as
> >he later worked it out. (It shows traces of
> >Z.'s earlier genitive case, etc.)
>
> Not at all. The correlative table is simply an extension of a system which
> exists in many ethnic languages -- in, for instance, English and Japanese
> -- to greater or lesser degrees of completeness and consistency. Z. simply
> took an existing and common pattern and made it consistent. The -ES ending
> is not a trace of "Z.'s earlier genitive case" since Z. never had a
> genitive case ending in either primitive version of his language that has
> been available for inspection ("malamikete DE las nacjes" in 1878, "La
> kron' DE cia patro" in 1881). I myself don't particularly like the -ES
> ending, which loses the information made available to possessive pronouns
> by the -J and -N endings, but apparently Zamenhof adopted it simply because
> the vowels that could be used with those endings were already taken for
> other uses (kiO, kiA, kiU, kiE) in the correlative subsystem.
>
> >De Wahl did get Dr. Z to change the table in
> >part, but that was relatively early. Later,
> >its acceptance became an act of faith. As it
> >apparently is today.
>
> Wahl's proposed change was relatively minor, and was not a change in the
> structure of the table; he merely (and correctly) pointed out that the
> original time ending -AN could be confused with the object ending of "kia",
> and Z simply changed the -N to an -M. Why Z chose the -M is an open
> question; Vilborg writes, "I believe that for Zamenhof it was merely a
> question of replacing one nasal with another, but you can of course point
> to the already extant _jam_ and some Latin adverbs of time (iam = jam, tum,
> numquam) as models."
>
> >The issue being discussed was "concision."
> >
> >Using two-word idioms for ideas like "here"
> >and "this" is not quite as concise as would
> >be a separate set of words. That was my
> >primary point.
>
> Of course, as often happens the concision tends to show up elsewhere than
> where you're looking for it -- e.g. when the "c^i" is used in something
> outside the table such as "c^ikaze", "in this case". Similarly, Esperanto
> has been accused of having overlong words compared to English because of
> its grammar coding; but in fact the grammar-coding often _shortens_ words
> where long derived forms are required in English (usually when we're
> talking about Latin-origin terms); e.g., while "konversacii" is longer than
> the English "to converse", the noun form, created by simple recoding, is
> about the same length (actually one letter shorter) than its English
> derived equivalent: "konversacio - conversation", and the recoded forms
> "konversacia" and "konversacie" are respectively and progressively shorter
> than the further-derived English equivalents "conversational" and
> "conversationally". (*)
>
> ---
>
> (*) The Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto also gives the term "konversi"
> with the same meaning -- a neologism based on a truncation which takes us
> back to the original, perhaps preliterate, Latin verb forms from which the
> Latin -TIO(NIS) nouns in the third declension and their Romance descendants
> were based. This is a fairly common phenomenon in the modern Esperanto
> vocabulary, as I've pointed out here before. "konversi", of course,
> illustrates the point above even better than "konversacii".
>
> -- Don HARLOW
> http://www.webcom.com/~donh/don/don.html
>
> Branĉetoj nudaj
> Antaŭ ĉiel' lazura
> Lunon aĵuras.
>
> Se vi serĉas...
> Novelojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Noveloj/
> Poemojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/
> Recenzojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Recenzoj/

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