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AUXLANG  November 2001, Week 3

AUXLANG November 2001, Week 3

Subject:

Re: this/that in English vs tiu

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:44:06 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (143 lines)

Je 12.05 ptm 2001.11.17 -0800, Leo MOSER skribis

>>From: "Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>>Je 05.16 ptm 2001.11.13 -0500, vi (Thomas ALEXANDER) skribis
>>>Leo Moser wrote:
>>>
>>>In another note you wrote:
>>> >There is a semantic difference between the
>>> >two terms. I do not believe Esperantists
>>> >solve it by pointing. They add the "c^i."
>>>         It's amusing to me that you know more
>>>about Esperanto than a former president of ELNA.
>
>Does he say Esperantist do NOT add "c^i"
>when they want to make the meaning clear?

I think it's just a question of, somewhere in four different messages,
someone having lost the thread of what was being said. Not an uncommon
occurrence in such discussions, I think. No, Thomas and I and you all know
more-or-less equally well (though I suspect that my knowledge, and that of
Thomas, is more visceral and less intellectual than yours) that "c^i" is
the Esperanto proximity pointer.

>>(*) If Leo is on the ball, he will point out here that, in fact, based on
>>the way the Esperanto correlative table is set up, adding another column
>>would also have been the moral equivalent of adding only a single morpheme.
>
>Yes, and some reforms of Eo. did just that
>-- added a new column. But it did not even
>cost an additional morpheme, since words like
>"now" became the equivalent of "this + time."
>So other morphemes were saved.

Not at all. You still need, for this particular use, morphemes for both
"this" and "that", which are the equivalent of the Esperanto correlative
beginning "ti-" and the particle "c^i".

>>Zamenhof chose a somewhat different approach, however, and I think later
>>history -- most notably, the cooption of "c^i" for use outside the
>>correlative table -- has justified his choice.
>>-- Don HARLOW
>
>There seems an assumption that Dr. Z was
>incapable of error. And that his project
>was totally consistent. I believe that there
>was inadvertance involved.

I don't quite follow what seem to me to be a series of non-sequiturs here.
My statement simply says that Zamenhof made a choice, and that time and
practice has justified that choice (though not necessarily invalidated
other possible choices); I don't see how this can be translated into "Dr. Z
was incapable of error". As to consistency, I've pointed out in this forum
changes I would make to his language if I thought that changes were
justified by other considerations than the desire to simply tinker with
something that works. As to inadvertence, I suspect that this was -- with
regard to the use of c^i outside the table of correlatives -- indeed the case.

As an aside, I believe that Z.'s joint use of "c^i" as a particle
indicating proximity and C^I- as a correlative prefix indicating
universality was probably a mistake. Had Z. used, e.g., "*FI-" instead of
"C^I-" for the second use, likely by today people would indeed be arguing
over the validity of a new and unofficial correlative column in which, for
instance, "c^ie" meant "here". The gains in concision would, however, be
relatively minimal, though real; hence, again, I am _not_ proposing a reform.

>I feel that the Eo. table was part of his
>"linguistic juvenilia" (an early semi-Volapukic
>stage) and it no longer fit the language as
>he later worked it out. (It shows traces of
>Z.'s earlier genitive case, etc.)

Not at all. The correlative table is simply an extension of a system which
exists in many ethnic languages -- in, for instance, English and Japanese
-- to greater or lesser degrees of completeness and consistency. Z. simply
took an existing and common pattern and made it consistent. The -ES ending
is not a trace of "Z.'s earlier genitive case" since Z. never had a
genitive case ending in either primitive version of his language that has
been available for inspection ("malamikete DE las nacjes" in 1878, "La
kron' DE cia patro" in 1881). I myself don't particularly like the -ES
ending, which loses the information made available to possessive pronouns
by the -J and -N endings, but apparently Zamenhof adopted it simply because
the vowels that could be used with those endings were already taken for
other uses (kiO, kiA, kiU, kiE) in the correlative subsystem.

>De Wahl did get Dr. Z to change the table in
>part, but that was relatively early. Later,
>its acceptance became an act of faith. As it
>apparently is today.

Wahl's proposed change was relatively minor, and was not a change in the
structure of the table; he merely (and correctly) pointed out that the
original time ending -AN could be confused with the object ending of "kia",
and Z simply changed the -N to an -M. Why Z chose the -M is an open
question; Vilborg writes, "I believe that for Zamenhof it was merely a
question of replacing one nasal with another, but you can of course point
to the already extant _jam_ and some Latin adverbs of time (iam = jam, tum,
numquam) as models."

>The issue being discussed was "concision."
>
>Using two-word idioms for ideas like "here"
>and "this" is not quite as concise as would
>be a separate set of words. That was my
>primary point.

Of course, as often happens the concision tends to show up elsewhere than
where you're looking for it -- e.g. when the "c^i" is used in something
outside the table such as "c^ikaze", "in this case". Similarly, Esperanto
has been accused of having overlong words compared to English because of
its grammar coding; but in fact the grammar-coding often _shortens_ words
where long derived forms are required in English (usually when we're
talking about Latin-origin terms); e.g., while "konversacii" is longer than
the English "to converse", the noun form, created by simple recoding, is
about the same length (actually one letter shorter) than its English
derived equivalent: "konversacio - conversation", and the recoded forms
"konversacia" and "konversacie" are respectively and progressively shorter
than the further-derived English equivalents "conversational" and
"conversationally". (*)

---

(*) The Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto also gives the term "konversi"
with the same meaning -- a neologism based on a truncation which takes us
back to the original, perhaps preliterate, Latin verb forms from which the
Latin -TIO(NIS) nouns in the third declension and their Romance descendants
were based. This is a fairly common phenomenon in the modern Esperanto
vocabulary, as I've pointed out here before. "konversi", of course,
illustrates the point above even better than "konversacii".


-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/don/don.html

Branĉetoj nudaj
Antaŭ ĉiel' lazura
Lunon aĵuras.

Se vi serĉas...
   Novelojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Noveloj/
   Poemojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/
   Recenzojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Recenzoj/

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January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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