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AUXLANG  November 2001, Week 3

AUXLANG November 2001, Week 3

Subject:

Re: this/that in English vs tiu

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:30:56 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (76 lines)

Je 10.12 ptm 2001.11.20 -0800, Leo MOSER skribis
>>From: Kjell Rehnstrom <[log in to unmask]>
>>Reply-To: International Auxiliary Languages Subject: Re: this/that in
>>English vs tiu
>>Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 07:55:43 +0100

Attribution is screwed up here; the following exchange is between you and
me, I believe.


>><clip>
>> > >I feel that the Eo. table was part of his
>> > >"linguistic juvenilia" (an early semi-Volapukic
>> > >stage) and it no longer fit the language as
>> > >he later worked it out. (It shows traces of
>> > >Z.'s earlier genitive case, etc.)
>> >
>> > Not at all. The correlative table is simply an extension of a system
>>which
>> > exists in many ethnic languages -- in, for instance, English and
>>Japanese
>> > -- to greater or lesser degrees of completeness and consistency. Z.
>>simply
>> > took an existing and common pattern and made it consistent.
>
>I was not making a point against having words
>that fit into tables. The point was that I had
>the impression that Z. made his table early, and
>that it did not correspond to the patterns that
>his language later took. Z.'s table was no more
>consistent than that of many natural languages,
>actually IMO less consistent.

Again ... not at all. You chopped out a bit of my answer, I notice. And you
should notice:

(1) the -O correlatives correspond to nouns (they are asking for a name of
something when used as questions);
(2) the -A correlatives correspond to adjectives (they are asking for a
description of something);

Beyond this point, the correlatives needed to be broken off from the
regular system, because they come in too many varieties.

The -U correlatives are often considered a type of adjective, but they
correspond more to the definite article "la" which is _not_ an adjective:
they are asking that a certain item or group of items be identified out of
a larger set. There's no provision for that in the regular adjective
system, so Z used the -U here (which in the regular system is used as a
verbal mood).

For the adverbial forms, Z. could have followed the Novial &c pattern and
used "kiuloke", "kiumaniere", "kiucele", "kiukvante", "kiutempe"; but he
decided on a more concise system and chose "kie", "kiel", "kial", "kiom",
"kian/m".

Finally, to make the final point once again: -ES is _not_ "a trace of Z.'s
earlier genitive case" because there never was an earlier genitive case;
from 1878 (the first scrap of any form of Esperanto that we have
available), Z. _always_ showed the genitive with a preposition (de). Of
course, again he could have used "de kiu", but he opted for a form that
fitted with the rest of the system.


-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/don/don.html

Branĉetoj nudaj
Antaŭ ĉiel' lazura
Lunon aĵuras.

Se vi serĉas...
   Novelojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Noveloj/
   Poemojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Poezio/
   Recenzojn, http://www.best.com/~donh/Esperanto/Literaturo/Recenzoj/

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