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AUXLANG  November 2001, Week 3

AUXLANG November 2001, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Esperanto cases (was: Re: Comparison of IAL sentences)

From:

Chris Burd <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:15:56 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (116 lines)

On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:46:04 +0200, michael farris <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Chris Burd wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 14:56:15 +0200, michael farris <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>The most analytic
>> >version of Eo is more morphologically complex than Turkish?
>>
>> Well, only because of the POS marking.
>
>That's like saying "She's cured of cancer, but it was only a placebo
>effect." Only? A cure is a cure and morphological complexity is
>morphological complexity (no matter how regular).
>
>That's not what people normally mean
>> when they talk about Eo's synthetic characteristics (or is it?).
>
>It depends, but I've read accounts that Zhof considered dom- and -o
>as separate words (in his description)
>
>I mean,
>> suppose Eo didn't allow any compounding of the "malsanulejo" type (> "ejo
>> por malsanaj uloj". It would still have a high morpheme:word ratio,
thanks
>> to the POS markers, but wouldn't feel like a highly analytic language,
IMO.

I meant 'synthetic'.

>In mine either, it's not analytic at all, its still synthetic
>
>ej-o por mal-san-a-j ul-o-j
>
>10 morphemes in 4 words
>
>ej por malsan uloj is more analytic (7 morphemse in 4 words)
>
>and so would
>
>la grand dom est plen de libroj (9 morphemes 7 words)
>
>but neither is allowed in trad. Eo grammar

If this were the Esperanto way, I'd suggest that -oj was a single morpheme,
so 8 morphemes.
>
>
>> BTW, how would you analyse an Interlingua sentence like:
>>
>> "Russo es mi prime lingua europee"
>
>
>russ/o es mi prim/e lingua europe/e
>
>maybe, I don't know Ia well enough.
>
>eight (I'd say at most) morphemes for six words
>
>It depends on which comes first the adjective or derived noun.
>Whenever it's not too awkward, I'd vote for the noun as primary.

Thinking about, I'd say it's 7 morphemes:

"Russ/o es mi prime lingua europee."

We can regard the -O as a substantivising suffix that suppresses the final
vowel of the root RUSSE, as do all vowel-initial suffixes. (This seems a
bit weird from the perspective of the source languages, since the -E
in "europee" and "prime" is a deliberate neutering of the prototypical
gender endings -A/-O. I assume that if Ia had Romance-style gender and
concord, the adjectival endings would be separate morphemes, e.g., *povr/a
femina, *povr/o viro.)

Only in rare constructions like "bilingue" 'bilingual', does the -E seem to
be a morpheme:

bi + lingua + e

So in this case, the -E suppresses the native -A of "lingua".

>The mechanics (as opposed to semantics) of Ia are much more
>traditionally Indo-European than EO (semantically they're equally
>Euro-centric)
> IE languages are notoriously messy around morpheme boundaries.
>I'd say the operation is more likely to be
>
>russo
>russ/e
>
>but it would be easy to convince me it's the other way around. It
>would be much harder to convince me to not have _any_ default form
>(as is implied in the Eo system) that is, you'd have your work cut
>out trying to convince me that russ- is a morpheme at a practical
>(instead of very theoretical) level.

I agree, unless you postulate that the -E is a phonetic feature added to
avoid to the unacceptable final -SS. In other words, "russe" is a
realisation of "russ-" in certain environment. To support this, you'd have
to argue further that Ia double vowels have some kind of underlying
reality, despite being realised as a single vowels... an argument you might
support through an analysis of stress patterns. Sounds I bit like some
Chomskian analyses I've heard... or am I completely out of my depth here?

>IE languages have default forms
>and it's ecnomical to consider them as single morphemes. I know of
>no analysis of any IE language that would treat Spanish libro as
>libr-o. It might exist but it's a hard sell.


I agree.

Cheers,

Chris

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