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AUXLANG  December 2001, Week 1

AUXLANG December 2001, Week 1

Subject:

Re: -ae/-aj plural endings

From:

"R.P.S." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:16:02 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (77 lines)

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcos Franco <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [AUXLANG] -ae/-aj plural endings


> Thomas, I have to tell you this is simply false (or wrong, if you
> want).  In the written form, Greek makes this plural with -OI, not
> -OJ

Isn't this just a transcription-related matter? In old Greek, o (ò mikrón) +
i (iôta) was pronounced as a diphthong, just like "oj" in Esperanto.

> In the oral form, the "o" in -OI gets the stress of the word,
> unlike Espo's unstressed -oj.

I haven't ever heard of such a rule. If you take any text written in old
Greek, you can see many words ending in -oi/-oj which have the stress on
another syllable. e.g.: lógos, lógoi, ánthropos, ánthropoi

I think you may be getting confused with another rule of old Greek's
accentuation. There's a rule telling us words with a long vowel or a
diphthong (because it's a long sound) in their last syllable can only carry
the stress on their last two syllables. e.g.: the plural accusative form of
ánthropos, which was pronounced somewhat like "anTHROpoos", because there's
a written diphthong (o+y/u, ò mikrón + `y psilón) at the last syllable, in
the place of what I've written as "oo". The -oi diphthong at the end of 2nd
declension words is an exception to this rule. This is the reason why the
plural form of the nominative "ánthropos"  is "ánthropoi", instead of
*anthrópoi.

> So, in sum, Greek's plural is different
> from Espo's both in its written and its oral form.

As I've said above, I don't see in which way it is different in the oral
form. Am I missing something? Have I misunderstood anything?

>
> Anyway, among the ca. 6000 living languages in the world, you'll
> probably find some using -oj in plurals, if you're willing to do the
> search.
>
> >In addition to Ancient and Modern Greek (as says the author of the
> >above lines), a nice plural Latin word like "minutiae" (plural of
> >"minutia") ends in "ae", which is pronounced like "aj".

As far as I know, the _e_ in _ae_ and _oe_ Latin diphtongs was pronounced
neither like "e" in Spanish/Italian/Esperanto/Interlingua/... nor like "j"
in Esperanto. It was a sound between them. Or at least this is what my first
Latin book tells in it's section about pronunciation: "la e algo cerrada,
próxima a la i". In other different pronunciations, _oe_ and _ae_ were said
just like /e/, e.g. in what this book calls "pronunciación tradicional
española" (Spanish traditional pronunciation).

> Marcos
>

Rodrigo

**********
"Loli no ha seguido preguntando al respecto, y menos mal porque a mí cada
vez que me tocan el tema de los ejércitos me enciendo y empiezo a soltar
pestes contra el patriotismo y las banderas (para mí, que amo la paz
instintivamente, todas las banderas son nazis, y se me ponen los pelos de
punta cuando veo a alguien emocionado al escuchar un himno, porque el
siguiente paso es mirar con desprecio a alguien que se emociona escuchando
un himno que no es el tuyo; y del desprecio al odio hay sólo un par de
paradas). Es como esa pamplina de que para mantener la paz hace falta
armarse hasta los dientes; que yo sepa, ninguna ráfaga de ametralladora ha
resucitado a nadie, ningún misil ha aplacado el hambre a nadie o le ha
sanado de su enfermedad. Los militares dicen que los ejércitos son
necesarios para defenderse en las guerras que sus colegas han provocado."

Alejandro Cuevas: "La vida no es un auto sacramental"
**********

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