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CONLANG  February 2002, Week 1

CONLANG February 2002, Week 1

Subject:

Telona Grammar, part 2

From:

Jonathan Knibb <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 7 Feb 2002 00:03:42 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (173 lines)

Jim Grossmann wrote:
>>>
Thanks for your responses;    Telona becomes more interesting by the post.
I don't understand it all, but if I ask more questions, maybe that'll
change.
<<<

I'm glad you like it!  Certainly I'm finding your questions stimulating to
answer - I hope my answers are intelligible and helpful.

>>>
1)    If you've got two word classes, referential words and operators,
should you say that Telona has no parts of speech?
<<<

Hoom, hrm, well, no, not really. :)  Earlier incarnations of Telona admitted
openly to having two word classes - but then I got the idea that I could
limit the number of operators to two (one of which would have an inverse),
and then it all went to my head a bit, and I hid the operators in affixes so
I could claim they weren't really words.  :))

Maybe a better way to put it would be to say that Telona has one open class
of content words, and one closed class consisting of three function words,
one of which is realised as a zero morpheme and the others as affixes.  But
it doesn't roll off the tongue nearly as nicely. :)

>>>
2)    Regarding Telona's head first structure, you write:
"...Even when all the words co-refer, as in 'tyha dene', there are good
pragmatic reasons for considering 'tyha dene' to be a kind of 'tyha' (man),
and 'dene tyha' to be a type of 'dene' (tall thing)."
I think you should specify said pragmatic reasons.   If the referential word
that names the biggest set always comes first, aren't you using syntax to
differentiate types of words analogous to, say, attributive nouns vs. head
nouns?
<<<

Ah - perhaps I used the word 'subset' in haste.  In the phrase X Y, it's not
set Y, but set X Y, which is a subset of set X.  In other words, adding Y to
the phrase causes a restriction of set X to its subset X Y.  Similarly,
adding X to phrase Y causes a restriction of set Y to its subset Y X.  The
relative size of sets X and Y is largely irrelevant (and really meaningless
- is the set 'air' bigger or smaller than the set 'cold'?).

Of course, set Y does sometimes happen to be a subset of set X, in which
case the word X becomes redundant in the phrase.  This may happen when the
listener is unaware of this relationship between the sets, or when both are
aware but the speaker wishes to emphasise the status of Y as a member of set
X, as with the first two words of this utterance:

T:  Nico lsn dybele ehe.
Ti: nico l - n dybele + re
Ei: (((friend you) - gen) (support + I))
E:  You'll support me, won't you, my friend...?

The reasons for considering 'tyha dene' and 'dene tyha' as pragmatically
distinct are quite difficult to describe briefly (and I don't have a good
track record at brevity :) ), but I'll try.  One reason relates to the
information transfer in the discourse, and degrees of 'givenness' of various
concepts.  In a discussion about the members of a football team, one might
want to say, for example, 'The tall one is particularly agile.'  The most
likely translation of the first part would be simply 'dene', or perhaps
'dene'r', where the clitic 're' (clitics are perfectly good words of the
open class, they just have their own phonology :)) ) means something like
'the one we both know, you know the one, although we haven't mentioned him
as such yet'.  However, if the topic of the members of the team had been
dropped for a few sentences, and the speaker wanted to bring it back into
the discourse, he/she might well identify the topic referent as 'tyha dene',
just to bring back the fact that they were talking about 'tyha'.  Now, in a
different discussion, say concerning the relative heights of men and women,
one might want to say something like 'tall *men* are taller than tall
*women*'.  This would certainly be translated using 'dene tyha',
topicalising 'dene', and emphasising 'tyha' as the contrastive element of
the phrase.

But I was going to leave all that until I'd explained sentence structure ...
oh well. :)

>>>
3) Regarding the + & - operators.   Can you indicate reciprocal action by
combining these?   How do you indicate reflexive action?   What kinds of
sentences do the work of structures in more conventional languages with
linking verbs like "become," "resemble," and "be less than"?
<<<

Firstly: no, reciprocal action is translated using the word 'luni', which in
any given interpretation of the phrase (Y + luni)), refers to any of the
referents of Y which are possible in context but to which Y is not actually
referring (deep breath).  So, in:

T:  Tyhas p tewas k luini.
Ti: tyha - p tewe - k + luni
Ei: ((man - small-group) ((look-at - each) + other-than-self))
E:  The men looked at each other.

...'luni' refers to each of the referents of 'tewas ke', but whichever
referent of 'tewas ke' is being considered, 'luni' refers to another one.

Secondly: reflexive action, if not described by a different word from the
corresponding transitive action, is indicated by the word 'wa', usually
translated as 'self', but actually corresponding rather nicely to the Czech
'se', by referring to the referent of its immediate governor.

T:  Tyhas p tewas k wai.
Ti: tyha - p tewe - k + wa
Ei: ((man - small-group) ((look-at - each) + self))
E:  Each man looked at himself.

Thirdly: 'become' is described by a number of words which form part of a
group of words indicating aspect and tense.  The exact word used depends
upon the point in the becoming to which you want to refer, and to the
directionality of the becoming (becoming X, or becoming not-X).  For
example:

T:  Tha mapuko ny`tas le.
Ti: tha mapuko ny`ta - le
Ei: (man ((angry red) - become-narrative)))
E:  The man became red with anger.

T:  Be eluha nune maupuko nta ...
Ti: be + tyha nune + mapuko nta
Ei: (rel + (man (becoming + (angry red)))))
E:  As the man was becoming angry, ...

'Resemble' I haven't tried to translate yet, but I expect it'll be a
straightforward X resemble + Y construction.  'Be less than' - do you mean
'be less (tall, red, happy) than'?  If so, I'm having a little trouble with
that ... I'll let you know!

>>>
I know it may be premature to ask, but how do you indicate the quantities of
referents when you wish to specify them?   Also, can your language do
without pro-forms?
<<<

Quantity is indicated by [X - quantity-word], like 'tyhas pe' in the
examples above.  The quantity words are not generally used outside of this
construction (although they *do* have referents of their own, dammit, I'm
just not sure what they are!).

Proforms will be an extremely important feature of Telona in its finished
state, and I'm working actively on that aspect of it.  You may be interested
to know that the current model involves two classes, one more pronominal and
one more, yes, pro-verbal ... but any word would have one of each class to
describe it in any given context.  I haven't got very far with that yet, but
I know that when I have a system of proforms it will make Telona much easier
to use and more flexible.

>>>
I've often dreamed of designing a language whose sheer simplicity makes it
exotic.   So far, you've come closer to realizing that vision than I ever
have, and your effort is fascinating.   As a stodgy old cuss, I suspect that
you will eventually need more operators than the 0-form, +, and - if you
want to avoid impractical ambiguities. You may even need another word class.
But we'll see, won't we?
<<<

Another word class?  Never!  Never, I tell you!  <evil laugh>  Telona did
start out with five or six operators, but having battled to keep the number
down, I'm not going to give up easily.  There's plenty of scope for little
disambiguating words here and there instead (which don't have to form
separate classes!).

As soon as I can, I think I'm going to have to get a Telona grammar up on
the web.  It might take some time to get the lexicon up to speed, but I
think it would be worth it.  Do you agree?

Jonathan.

'O dear white children casual as birds,
Playing among the ruined languages...'
W. H. Auden, 'Hymn to St. Cecilia'

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December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
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