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CONLANG  April 2002, Week 2

CONLANG April 2002, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Offlang suggestion & counterproposal

From:

Maarten van Beek <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 8 Apr 2002 23:32:20 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (237 lines)

> Van: Christophe Grandsire
>
> En réponse à Maarten van Beek <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> >
> > The point is not whether I am lazy or not, the point is that you want
> > to make a journal.
>
> Then you took me really wrong! This idea was Jan's. I just found it nice,
and
> proposed myself to make it work, if people are interested. But I'm not
gonna
> buy expensive programs and material just for it (I don't have the
financial
> means to do such a thing). If I am to do it, it will be with the material
I
> have. And since Word cannot be used (lack of compatibility, since I think
an
> electronic form is what most people will want), there is only one thing I
can
> use to make it work: LaTeX. It's not that I am tyrannical, it's just that
I
> don't have anything else to work with. If you know a good publishing
program
> that accept many different formats (including Word and LaTeX), stable even
with
> big files and free, then I'll withdraw my conditions.
>
> > You have to deal with the situation as it is, whether you
> > like or agree with it or not.
>
> Yep. But the situation of my computer is more important than anything else
here.

No, it isn't. You foremost need copy. Even without a computer you could make
a journal, using a xerox machine for all I care, but without copy, you
cannot. I am not talking about technical or practical conditions, but just
about the risk that not enough people might send in copy.

> I'm just a volunteer. If somebody else can do what you
> would ask, I'll be happy to let him/her do. It's not that I want to make a
journal.
> It's that if people want me to make a journal, it'll have to be with the
means
> I have (but if you want to offer me the software necessary, you're more
than
> welcome :))).

I myself use Adobe Acrobat, so I publish to PDF directly from any program I
like, and it works well and keeps the files small (using the correct
settings for web publsihing, which might come to the core of the problem we
discussed with PDF download and file size).

>  I agree it would be more fair if everybody
> > shared a little of the work load, but that is just not going to happen.
> > I am not lazy, and I would like a conlang magazine, but I just do not
have
> > time to also learn LateX in the process, install proper programms and
stuff.
>
> Well, I don't have time nor money to install the proper programs
> needed to be able to accept other formats than LaTeX and RTF. My time is
precious too.

I think we are both missing each other's point. I was under the assumption
that you want to make the journal work, but now I believe that you do not
really want the journal, you just want help if anyone else want to have a
journal, is that correct?

> If I am to make a journal, it
> will be on my conditions, not because I want it but because I
> don't have any choice!

I understand, but my point is that that choice might result in no journal at
all.

> Asking me to accept any kind of format and adapt everything to make it
look
> good at the end will prevent success too. I just don't have time for that.

I don't ask that of you. I don't ask for anything, actually. I am just
giving feedback to make the chance of success a little bigger. I can't tell
you how much time you have, or how much time you want to put into it, but I
can tell you that the more time you have for the journal, the bigger its
chance for success. Don't rely on "other people" to do more work because you
don't have that time, because they simply won't.

> Unless at least five people are ready to help me and have the skills
needed, it
> will be impossible to do. That's the choice: give everyone a little job to
do,
> or a few a lot. I won't accept the latter for something which is purely
> voluntary.

Neither would I. But the general public, however unfair it may seem, will
probably not accept the former choice either, and then the result will be no
journal.

> > Instead of asking others to learn LateX, you
> > cuold
> > also try to learn how to convert Word documents quickly and correctly,
> > something which is in my experience not that hard to do either.
> >
>
> Well, then do it yourself, because in my experience it's a pain in the ass
> (I've often tried to convert Word documents into HTML for instance.

No, I won't do it myself, because I am not interested in a journal. I have
the list to post my articles to, which works much quicker than waiting for
the journal.

> Well, even though it's supposed to do it automatically, I quickly found
out
> that Word was making the file so full of errors to correct that it was
faster
> to me to rewrite the whole thing directly in HTML. But if that works with
> small one-page things, it's out of the question that I do that for a
30-page
> journal! Where will I find the time?).

30 page journal? You are getting quite ambitious...

> > And neither can you live by the command line all your life, assuming
that
> > because your HTML is technically correct, it is supposed to look good on
> > browsers :-)
> >
> Well, saying such stupid things doesn't really serve for anything. I just
said
> that you couldn't work only with a graphical interface (which is
> true). I never said that you had to come back to command-line only!

Nor did I accuse you of that, did I?

> What's the use of discussing if you distort my words like that? (and I saw
the smiley. But it's
> not a little smiling face which is gonna make such a thing funny
> and acceptable)

Lol, oh Christophe, I myself wrote that I am an in-between guy, and that I
prefer a mix of command line and GUI manipulation. I was not saying that you
do that, I was just completing your statement that it should be a mix of
both. How come you're so fierce about this?

> > I was never unhappy. I am merely trying to help you succeed in your
> > attempt by pointing out where things could go wrong.
>
> Well, I know very well the problems, and I don't have illusions. I'm just
> stating my limitations, which don't come from a lack of will but
> from a lack of material, time and money. Find me all, and I'll be happy to
do
> exactly as you want.

One last time: I don't _want_ anything. I am pefectly ok with a journal with
only LateX input. I just think that the chances of it ever being succesful
could be increased by things I said above.

> > But what then is the added value as opposed to this list?
>
> Apart from the fact that you can add pictures and not be limited by ASCII,
or
> even by HTML?

I can put a link to my webpage. Dozens of people do that.

> > But is also requires a lot of spontaneity and initiative from the
> > general public, which is the weak point imo.
>
> Well, it worked in my school (and still works), where laziness was the
norm. So
> why not here? I'd rather think that it would work better here than in my
> school, knowing the personality of the people on this list!

I hope you are right. My experiences are different.

> > Ha, but the world isn't fair.
>
> Well, if you accept that it's your problem. When something is unfair I try
to
> correct it. And funny enough, it works! I know by experience that if the
world
> is unfair it's only because people accept the situation as it is. I
personally
> have never accepted to be treated unfairly, and always managed to make
things
> fair. I'm not gonna change now.

As you know, I am also not a person to just accept that the world is unfair.
But neither do I believe that because I act upon it, the world is suddenly
not unfair anymore. However much I protest, there are still innocent
children getting killed everybody around the globe. I do not accept that, I
speak out against it. I act against it in the way I think is best, but it
still happens.

> Then the whole thing is already dead even before it began, because how
will you
> find people even to make an editorial staff if people don't have the
courage to
> at least make one article?

Well, you need only two or three enthousiasts for the staff, and many many
more to write articles. It's not the few enthousiasts that are the problem,
as we have already seen, it's the large mass of contributors that is the
problem.

> But explain me exactly what I can do to urge people to write
> articles, except sending e-mails stating: "Would you write an article for
the
> journal?". Even if I come up with themes and subjects, unless I do them
myself
> I can never be sure that anyone will do it.

You can only do one thing: make it as easy for them as possible to
contribute, and hope that they will. That was exactly the underlying thought
of everything I said sofar: the more you facilitate, the bigger the chance
of success. If you don't have time or money or manpower to facilitate much,
that's perfectly ok with me, but it will diminish the chances for succcss.

> At the end, people will still have to make an effort. The effort to write
an
> article itself won't be raised much by doing it in a way that can help me,

Yes it will. Writing an article about yuor language is fun. Hassling with
formats, however little time it actyually requires, is a bore and something
many people look up against. So it is very well possible people might pass
because of the format requirement. I don't say that they will, I just point
out that it is an added barrier for contributors.

Let me just finish by saying that if you do want to make the journal, that I
will be willing to do format conversion from and between
ASCII/Word/RTF/PostScript and PDF (for as far as possible). I do own Adobe
Acrobat 4.0 (as well as all other Adobe Software such as PhotoShop,
Illustrator and Pagemaker), so I can print virtually anything to PDF.
There's just one thing I don't really have: time.

Maarten

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June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 5
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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