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CONLANG  May 2002, Week 1

CONLANG May 2002, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Futurese

From:

Javier BF <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 7 May 2002 19:19:01 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (229 lines)

>And on what basis do you claim your Tunu to beat Futurese?
>Can your Tunu afford having monosyllabic roots?
><<<
>never! bisyllabic roots rule! :-) i speak OK a CV(CV)-rooted lang
(japanese) and
>a CV(V)C-rooted lang (khmer) and i can tell you that this doesn't make ny
>difference in speech relevance. your concern with "monosyllabic roots" is a
>useless mania.

It won't be considered a mania for that billion of Chinese
speakers used to "one syllable = one morpheme".


>Chinese would be much pleased if instead of merging voiced
>with voiceless, you turned their opposition into one of
>aspirated vs. unaspirated.
>>>>
>never. that would really make the lang impossible for half of humankind.

You use the word "impossible" too easily. I'm a native
speaker of Spanish, so I wasn't used at all to pronouncing
aspirated consonants. But now that I've learned English
I can pronounce them without difficulty, just as I've
learned to switch from Spanish syllable-timed prosody to
English stress-timed prosody. It wasn't easy at first, but
certainly it was far from being impossible; it was just a
matter of getting used to it thorugh practice.


>That way, instead of a vocabulary
>composed of lengthy polysyllabic words, the language would
>afford to be monosyllabic, a feature that will please
>Chinese much more than having so little sounds, which will
>then have to be pronounced very frequently thus increasing
>the risk of sentences turning up as tongue-twisters.
><<<
>CVCV is not "longer" than CVC because the CC part in a CVCCVC thread takes
as
>much "time" to pronounce as CVCCVC for all people not used to CC. that's
how it
>goes.

Yes, but in CVCV you have only one morpheme, while in CVCCVC
there are two. Two morphemes in Tunu would be CVCVCVCV which
is by all accounts longer than CVCCVC.


>And about 4 billions don't have any problem with them.
>I think 4 billions clearly "beat" that billion.
><<<
>again: we have a different viewpoints and logics about this all. i say
that (i)
>all earthlings can pronounce either [r] or [l] (even rotokas! :-) and (ii)
1.5
>billion can't so (iii) let's have all earthlings pronounce either [r] or
[l] as
>they wish---while you say that (iii) let the 1.5 billion die for the sake
of
>your CVC system that needs a neat number of consonants.

And why helping those 1.5 billion with the l/r "problem"
but not helping those at least 0.5 billion with their own
b/v "problem" or those hudreds of millions of Arabic
speakers with their i/e, u/o and e/a/o "problems"? Or is
it that a "problem" must be shared by at least one billion
speakers to be taken into account while counts for nothing
if the figure doesn't reach that limit?


>No, Japanese people will tend to pronounce si, ti and tu
>as shi, chi and tsu.
><<<
>they won't. they can pronounce [si], [ti] and [tu] as [si], [ti] and [tu].
i'm
>positive about this. the fact that their language says [Si], [tSi] and
[tsu]
>doesn't alter their ability to pronounce [si], [ti] and [tu]---exactly like
>french people have NO problem to pronounce [tS] wherever is needed or
feels more
>english-like---for instance a tennis "smash" is pronounced "smatch"
because it
>sounds more cool.

Of course, and the Chinese have nothing in their mouths
that makes impossible for them to pronounce an "r". I've
heard many Chinese people here in Spain that pronounce
our r's very well. It's just a matter of imitating
what they hear.


>O.K. but people would prefer a language they can easily
>pronounce at the speech speed they need, not one that
>forces them to make frequent pauses to keep their
>tongue from getting twisted.
><<<
>i enjoy japanese a lot precisely because i can pronounce many more
syllables
>within a shorter time than in any other languages i know. it feels like
surfing.
>ask Kou and other japanophones about this fun part of japanese.

What I find most difficult in understanding spoken
Japanese is precisely that they talk too quickly.


>May I know then why your Tunu, supposedly easy to pronounce
>for millions and billions, features /tS/, which is not used
>by e.g. those millions of speakers of Arabic and French, or
>/N/, which is hard to tell apart from /n/ for those hundreds
>of millions of Spanish speakers?
><<<
>arabs have [dZ], which is Tunu's /ch/'s allophone---remember: Tunu doesn't
make
>any difference between voiced/unvoiced consonants.
>french have absolutely no problem to pronounce "Chernobyl", "game, set and
>match", "dansons le cha-cha", "Tchad", "tchou-tchou", " Catarinetta
>bella--tchi-tchi", "Aldo Maccione, la classe!", "Machu-Picchu", etc. As
for [N]
>i can hear my g/f pronounce "tengo" OK. of course [N] is not going to
appear as
>an initial.

What's the problem with initial [N]? It is present
in languages like Indonesian, that is usually regarded
as a quite easy language to pronounce.


>What I find difficult is that the same sounds repeat
>constantly, and that's so because the sound inventory
>is very limited and thus each segment must necessarily
>appear very frequently.
><<<
>that's your only valid critic. i can tell from my own experience when i
learned
>japanese. i felt like "all the words sound the same" for a few weeks (now
i know
>that hebrew is so worse that i wouldn't complain with japanese anymore :-).
>you're right as long as you don't "internalize" the words. but once a word
>"means" something to you, then you don't care whether it sounds like
another
>word. i agree that it takes a few weeks to adapt.

The same is applicable to Futurese (and to any language).
As soon as you learn to associate a CVC word to a meaning,
it will come out to you "instinctively" when you think of
that concept, and even more if the CVC word has some kind
of onomatopoeic or expressive connotation.


>Even if you allow for a CVC syllable structure but still
>keep a very reduced number of phonemes, the resulting
>sentences will tend to be found tongue-twisting by many
>non-native speakers. Take for example Finnish.
><<<
>great news to the finnish list-members: your lang is difficult to
pronounce!

What do you mean? Futurese sound system is quite similar
to that of Indonesian, and Indonesian is not generally
considered a difficult language to pronounce.


>they thought it was only on saturday nights after 11 pm but now a mexican
tells
>them they're drunk 24h a day. :-)

I have no idea what you mean here. What does a Mexican,
Saturday nights and being drunk all day have to do with
anything we've been talking about here?


>either your lang can be pronounciable and easy to learn for 100% of
earthlings
>or english rules. english rules so far.

For a language to be "pronounceable and easy to learn"
for 100% earthlings, its phoneme chart must be reduced
to just /p/, /t/, /a/ and its grammar to Tarzan-speech.
And, even with all that, you'll always have the
problem of having to learn a vocabulary, so what you're
asking for is simply IMPOSSIBLE. I'm not looking for
a "perfect" IAL, I think the very idea of it is silly;
what I'm looking for is a language that makes a suitable
compromise between the various requirements for a
language to fit as an IAL.


>How many languages in the world display such small-sized
>phoneme charts as those of Japanese or Samoan? How many
>speakers do those languages have? Of all the major languages
>of the world (English, Chinese, Spanish, Hindi, Arabic,
>Russian....), those spoken by billions and billions, none
>uses such a reduced set of sounds.
><<<
>the thing is, the billions and billions don't use a common set of sounds
but can
>use a common set of sounds. it's called the lowest common denominator. you
take
>it or speak english.

May I know why you reduce the problem to just "take it or
speak English"? Do you fear that there may be other
possible solutions?


>You can make as many false claims upon me as you want.
>It will only show that your lack of better arguments to
>offer.
><<<
>i don't offer anything here. my conlang is not to learn for anyone except
for
>half of myself when i'm retired in 2032. but your Futurese is going to
make you
>insane.

May I know why? I consider myself a quite balanced
person.


> so my better argument is the following: realize no one in the world
>except yourself doesn't need your lang and grow it a respected conlang so
that
>our community makes you an eternal name among us.

I care absolutely nothing about fame.

Cheers,
Javier

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December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
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September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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August 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
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September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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