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CONLANG  May 2002, Week 1

CONLANG May 2002, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Futurese

From:

Javier BF <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 1 May 2002 14:31:29 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (184 lines)

><< Would you say English compounds such as "plane crash",
>"fire exit", "adult content" and the like are just one
>word each? >>
>
>    Yes; they're listed that way in the dictionary.  Each is one "lexeme".

I'd much rather say they're two-morpheme compounds.


>Why?  Because you can't automatically predict the meaning of these phrases
by
>a combination of the meanings of both words in any predictable way
(contrary
>to what you proposed).  A plane crash is "the crash(ing) of a plane".  So,
>logically, a fire exit, is "the exit(ing) of a fire", correct?

Your argumentation here is quite atrocious, I apologize
for saying it that way. If you take the meaning of "crash"
(and not of "crashing"; maybe you didn't notice the compound
was "plane crash", not "plane crashing") and that of "plane"
you can deduce the meaning of "plane crash" without any
difficulty. For the case of "fire exit", first, again the
compound is not "fire exiting" but "fire exit", so please
don't be "atrocious" and take the meaning of "exit" and not
that of "exiting", which are more than just a little different.
The problem with "fire exit" is not that it should mean
"the exiting of a fire" (Good Lord!! How could you be so
atrociously falacious here?), but that the relationship
between the two morphemes is not readily identifiable
because there are several possibilities (an exit to be used
in a fire emergency or an exit "made of fire"). English
doesn't specify any more because the most usual sense would
be the first, and that's what the compound means.

For such cases when the two morphemes can be related in
different ways, the solution is simply to introduce
another morpheme to clarify it. So, to make clear what a
"fire exit" is, you could say "fire emergency exit" instead.


>    Per the sound system, you might want to read up on auditory phonetics.
>Whether a sound is pronounceable or not is largely irrelevant to whether
it's
>a "good" phoneme for an IAL.  What matters is whether it can be
distinguishe
>d.  For example, [v/z/Z] are (I believe one could argue) more salient in
>pronunciation, but [f/s/S] are auditorilly more salient.  Also, voiceless
>stops are far more salient than voiced (in fact, it's more likely to have a
>distinction other than voicing in determining the difference between stops,
>and other sounds, as well.  In English, it's been argued that there are no
>voiced stops: just aspirated and unaspirated voiceless stops.  The same has
>been argued for [s/z]: [z] being voiceless, but having a narrower
>constriction than [s]).  And the velar place of articulation is very weak,
>making voicing very difficult, since a tight constriction is not easily
>achievable (even in languages that have a [g] which contrasts with [k], [g]
>shows up with far lower frequency than [k], or other voiced stops like [b]
>and [d]).  Evidence of the weakness of [g] shows up in tons of languages
>(like /g/ > [G] in Spanish, for example), and it often disappears
completely
>in certain environments.

So, what's that phoneme system do you propose that is so
damn better than the one I propose and makes a better use
of the roman script?


>    Next, with regards to your posting on your defense of your phonemes,
the
>argumentation is just atrocious.  I apologize for saying it in such a way,
>but it is.

Why? To dare make such a derogative comment about me you
should have offered a more detailed explanation than that.


><<* JAPANESE (poor sound system = of course, VERY EASY to pronounce):>>
>
>    I had no trouble pronouncing this sentence, having no prior training in
>Japanese.  Of course, knowing the pitch-accent rules would have made it
even
>easier...

Lucky you are. Also any native Japanese speaker won't have
any trouble with it.


><<* SAMOAN (perfect example of extremely poor sound system = of course,
>
>> this one must certainly be DEAD EASY to pronounce):>>
>
>    I had no trouble pronouncing these, either.

Luckier you are!! I, much less luckier than you, simply can't
pronounce that simple dialogue without twisting my tongue.


> I am studying Hawaiian,
>though.

That's explains it all.


> However, both of these examples are totally irrelevant.  Why?
>Because you're proposing a language that allows only monosyllabic words,
and
>no hiatus (i.e., two vowels in a row).  A word like "aofa'i" could never
>exist in Futurese.  If your language adopted the exact sound system of
>Samoan, I bet it'd be just as easy to pronounce because of your rules
>regarding syllable structure.  Why, then, these examples?  Seems like
they're
>there to kind of distract the reader.  They prove a different point, though
>by posting them, it could possibly be inferred that this completely
different
>point is synanomous with your point, which it isn't.  Tricky, but that
>doesn't fly.

You're suggesting my argumentation is deliberately falacious,
which definitely is A VERY SERIOUS CHARGE. You'd better
apologize as soon as possible.


>    And I'm absolutely baffled at how you came up with 11 consonants for
>Japanese.  I counted 27 just now, and that was without getting picky.

Japanese 27 consonants!!?? And may I know which ones those
are??


>    Yes, they would have the right.  Would they do it?  No.

I would complain if an IAL didn't make the l/r distinction
but kept b/v.


>  And, by your
>logic, there's an easy way to clear this up: Include only one liquid
phoneme,
>but *don't* say that it's only to help the speakers of certain groups of
>languages.

It's not a matter of "saying it aloud".


> Just say it's because you don't like having two, and that's the
>way it's going to be.

Then you're proposing that I base the phoneme chart upon
my personal taste!!


> Problem solved.  Besides, there's auditory evidence
>which suggests that it's easier to tell the difference between [t] and [k],
>and between [v] and [b] than any /r/ and /l/ phoneme--much easier.  Even
with
>[t] and [k], Hawaiians, et al can still tell the difference between [t] and
>[k].  They existed as two separate phonemes at one time in the language: a
>push chain just left [t] as the odd man out.  Just because a distinction
>doesn't exist in a language doesn't mean that the distinction can't be
made.
>English doesn't have a distinction between aspirated and unaspirated [t] at
>the beginning of a word.  Does that mean English speakers can't tell the
>difference?  Certainly not.  The lack of aspiration is one way you can tell
>if someone's speaking with an accent.

And may I know what's your point with all that?


><<it is quite rare that a
>
>> native speaker of a language finds a sound of his/her mother
>
>> tongue difficult to pronounce>>
>
>    Ever heard English speaking children pronounce "drawing" as "drawling"?
>"Red" as "wed"?  Is this rare?  Most times it doesn't persist (usually
>because kids are sent to a speech therapist), but occasionally it does.  A
>friend of mine can't pronounce /l+labial/ combinations.  So "wolf" becomes
>"woof" [wUf], and "elm" becomes "em" [Em] or "el" [EL] (could this be where
>that variant of "almonds" [&mIndz] came from?).  Why do speech therapists
>exist, after all?

I was talking about NORMAL PEOPLE, not about people with
articulatory problems.

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December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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