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AUXLANG  June 2002, Week 2

AUXLANG June 2002, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Organizations

From:

fasilinguo <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:07:42 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (140 lines)

    Saludos, Jay.
    En líneas generales, el tino se sitúa en la "izquierda" de la tensión
entre facilidad y tradición, el románico de Josu Lavin y de su grupo en la
"derecha" y el esperanto hacia el "centro". Al tino le interesa
preferentemente (hasta ahora) ser fácil, al románico (según lo veo) le
interesa básicamente ser tradicional y el esperanto es una lengua fácilmente
mecánica con concesiones al tradicionalismo (consonantes mudas que siguen
escribiéndose, signos diacríticos etimologizantes, acusativo para eruditos,
etcétera).
    No voy a "defender" al tino, pues eso es absurdo, y caer en la necedad
autoapologética del movimiento esperantista. Lo que voy a hacer es insistir
en la dialéctica entre facilidad y tradición. La facilidad es necesaria,
pues una lengua internacional muy difícil no tendrá casi adeptos; y la
tradición también lo es, porque casi nadie querrá aprender una lengua
internacional partiendo de cero en la gramática, el vocabulario, etcétera.
Por eso el románico (muy tradicional y muy difícil) no se difunde mucho, y
por eso el lojban (muy fácil pero de vocabulario irreconocible) tampoco se
difunde popularmente. Son las lenguas construidas que equilibran algo la
dialéctica entre facilidad y tradición las que alcanzan cierto eco:
esperanto, ido, interlingua, occidental, europanto. El tino aparece como un
dialecto del europanto, pero un dialecto fuertemente regularizado para
conseguir gran facilidad de uso activo y oral. Yo diría que el tino es pues
una lengua de "centroizquierda", más que de "izquierda radical"; por
ejemplo, su naturalismo semántico y fonológico es frecuentemente reconocido
(y a veces criticado). En cambio, no es naturalista en la ortografía ni en
la morfología verbal, sino sistemista (ortografía fonética, conjugación
verbal regular de un solo modelo). El novial y la interlingua serían de
"centroderecha".
    Dicho esto, abordaré el problema de los sufijos en tino. Es cierto que
hay un elevado número de sufijos, aunque muchos menos que en castellano. La
gran cantidad de sufijos (y de prefijos) obedece a la necesidad de
facilidad, aunque esa necesidad entre en tensión dialéctica con la
tradición. No sirve de nada negar uno de los polos, construyendo una lengua
puramente lógica (negadora de la tradición) o haciendo una lengua muy
arcaica, difícil y compleja (negadora de la facilidad). La negación de esa
dialéctica es guerra en lugar de integración. Lo que necesitamos es superar
la dialéctica, reconocer que las lenguas evolucionan desde la tradición en
el sentido del menor esfuerzo posible.
    Si aceptas esto, el problema de los sufijos en tino puede tener
solución. Hay unos sesenta sufijos en tino, mientras que el esperanto tiene
unos cuarenta y el castellano unos doscientos. También el número de
preposiciones es elevado, bastante mayor que en castellano e incluso que en
esperanto.
    En su evolución, el tino ha pasado de ser una lengua medianamente
sintética (sobre todo en la conjugación verbal) a ser más bien analítica, lo
que ha aumentado prefijos, sufijos, preposiciones y partículas en general.
Así, por ejemplo, de la forma sintética "amaba" (él amaba o ella amaba) se
ha pasado a la forma semianalítica "amile mor", o incluso a la forma
totalmente analítica, sin conjugación verbal propiamente dicha, "elo ile
amare mor" (masculino singular), o "ejo ile amare mor" (femenino singular).
Hay hablantes que prefieren el verbo sintético, otros el semisintético y
otros, finalmente, el analítico.
    Reducir el número de sufijos implica añadir raíces, y eso es posible si
los hablantes prefieren formas tradicionales.
    Un buen ejemplo es el de países, habitantes y lenguas. En tino, hay un
sufijo de país o territorio (sufijo neutral, que no entra en temas
políticos), el sufijo "ij". Hay también un sufijo de habitante de ese país o
territorio, el sufijo "an", y finalmente el sufijo "ic" indica lengua o
dialecto, de modo que pospuesto a la raíz de etnia o nación indica la lengua
de esa etnia o esa nación. Así, "(isa) fransijo" es (la) Francia,
"fransano", francés, un francés, un habitante de Francia, y "fransico" es
francés, el francés, el idioma típico de Francia, De modo similar,
"suedijo", "suedano" y "suedico", etcétera. Pero estas formas son a menudo
escasamente "naturales"; pensemos en gentilicios como "rusano" y "japonano".
Formas como "ruso" y "japonese" serían más naturales.
    Usarlas permitiría reducir el número de sufijos y preposiciones. De
todos modos, una pregunta: dado que en castellano hay muchos más sufijos que
en tino, ¿por qué encuentras excesivos los sufijos del tino pero no los
mucho más abundantes del castellano, el inglés, el francés, el italiano,
etcétera?
    Puedes practicar en esta misma página tu versión preferida del tino con
un sistema simplificado de sufijos. Recuerda que no soy el dueño ni el guía
de esta lengua, la cual marcha sola sin mi inútil tutela. Nunca he vigilado
el tino como Zamenhof vigiló el esperanto, y nunca lo haré. Sois los
interesados y hablantes del tino quienes debéis darle forma. No necesitas mi
permiso para cambiar el tino a tu manera, por muy diferente que lo hagas de
mi versión.
    Otra pregunta: ¿no es la difícil ortografía de la interlingua un serio
obstáculo real a su difusión como lengua auxiliar? Propongo una ortografía
básicamente fonética para la interlingua, junto con la suavización del
consonantismo (especialmente evitando que una sílaba termine en dos
consonantes, caso muy difícilmente pronunciable).
    También puedes proponer una lista reducida de sufijos más "naturales"
para el tino; y esta lista de correo está para tales propuestas, recuérdalo.
No te limites a criticar; haz propuestas concretas.
    De Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Bowks" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: Organizations


La verdad es que acurruca uno las cejas al
tener que figurar los cambios de español a
tino y partir de ahi'. La gran parte de lo que
escribes lo entiendo sin problema. Pero lo
dificil es aclimatarse al ritmo del lenguaje,
ya parece simple, pero al mismo tiempo
muy raro. Me recuerda algo al "Unitario"
de Pleyer. Lo conoces? Con sus sufijos
Esperantistas mas la derivacion tan castellana.
Tambien, los sufijos que usas me parecen
mas problematicos e intrigantes que los del
Esperanto. Podrias simplificar su uso y
reducir su numero? A mi', me encantan
los idiomas mas simples y con aparencia
mas "naturalistica"... El sacrificar el aspecto
natural a causa de simplificacion me parece
una perdida, asi' prefiero la Interlingua al
Esperanto.

Espero que esto te ayude a comprender como
lo entiendo yo... y quizas te de ocasion para ver
el tino por los ojos de otros auxilinguistas.

Con saludos,
Jay B.

----- Original Message -----
From: "fasilinguo" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: Organizations


>     una demando sinpla: esce pobate leturare con poca difisiluro las mias
> testos longas bia la tinico?
>     A simple question: can you read with little difficulty my long texts
in
> Tino?
>     Una pregunta simple: ¿podéis leer con poca dificultad mis textos
largos
> en tino?
>
>     fa isa alesandrulo sabiero casanobo domingo/
>     By/de Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo.
>

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December 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 4
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January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 1
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September 2003, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
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December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 2
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November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 1
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 3
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April 1998, Week 3
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April 1998, Week 1
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December 1997, Week 5
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