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AUXLANG  August 2002, Week 1

AUXLANG August 2002, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Deklaro pri la rolo de platformo inter planlingvoj.

From:

fasilinguo <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 4 Aug 2002 01:31:11 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (122 lines)

    Saludos, Javier.
    El chino hace lo que dices abajo, y yo, que hablo chino, nunca lo he
negado. Lo que he dicho es que la mayoría de las lenguas del mundo toma un
nutrido grupo de occidentalismos sin apenas deformarlos. Por lo demás, las
lenguas sinenses experimentan hoy un cambio foneticosemántico cuyo resultado
está por ver.
    En cuanto a raíces como "café", "chocolate" y "tabú", son obviamente
raíces internacionales, aunque no hayan tenido origen occidental.
    Mira, si vas permanentemente a la contra no llegarás muy lejos. Y sueles
hacer eso. No es mi estilo.
    En cuanto al volapük, si quieres información no tardarás en tenerla.
Consulta y observa qué pasó con la Academia del Volapük. Esta academia
sugirió una fuerte neolatinización del vocabulario, la cual fue rechazada
por Schleyer. Zamenhof, por su lado, exploró una alianza con los
volapuquistas, pero el sectarismo que encontró le impidió ir más allá. Poco
después surge el famoso esperanto, bastante más atractivo para el cliente
occidental medio que el volapük. Esto no impide reconocer los méritos del
volapük frente al esperanto; por ejemplo, el volapük tiene una fonotaxis
consistente, y el esperanto carece por completo de fonotaxis (de hecho es
una mera pasigrafía, donde la pronunciación es una mera imitación de un
modelo abstracto fijado por escrito).
    También en el tino hemos aprovechado el volapük, no te creas que no.
    Si no fueras permanentemente a la contra, intentando atacar en vez de
comprender, no habría que repetirte mil veces lo que ya tendrías que saber.
    Por ejemplo, ya sabrías que el cambio de vocabulario en el tino es
facilísimo, porque cualquier hablante puede proponerlo y practicarlo. De
hecho, así pasa, como puedes comprobar pasándote por las listas de tino. La
situación no es como en el esperanto ni como en el fasile; el tino es una
teoría científica aplicada, y como tal continuamente renovada y sometida a
la prueba experimental.
    Pero, con tu encono, dirás una y otra vez que el vocabulario del tino
"tiene que ser" predominantemente neolatino, como si los hablantes del tino
careciéramos de libertad para cambiar eso.
    Te voy a aconsejar una cosa: pásate por las listas de tino, observa y
haz allí tus comentarios.
    También te aconsejo que crees una lista de futurés, y que lo uses allí
desde el primer momento. Si lo haces, me apuntaré a ella de inmediato.
    Pues también, si no fueras tan peleón, te habrías dado cuenta hace
tiempo de que los tinistas no competimos con los hablantes de otras lenguas
auxiliares, sino que por el contrario estimulamos la investigación con
puntos de vista divergentes en interlingüística, así como la consecución de
estándares interlingüísticos razonables, o sea una auxilengua universal
unificada.
    La cosa no puede ser más fácil. Coges el esquema del tino, tan accesible
a ti como a cualquier otro investigador, cámbialo a tu gusto según tu
criterio y empieza a enviar mensajes en un tino así modificado en las listas
del tino. Por otro lado, también puedes hablar en tino en los encuentros
orales que tenemos en Madrid.
    Olvida los tambores, hombre. Reconoce que para que el futurés empiece a
andar hay que empezar por hablarlo, sin eternizarse en florituras teóricas.
    De Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Javier Barrio Fernández" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: Deklaro pri la rolo de platformo inter planlingvoj.


>     La mayoría de las lenguas del mundo tiene hoy unos cientos de lexemas
>occidentales, para empezar el famoso "teléfono", raramente deformados y
>comprensibles de modo inmediato.

Vamos a ver, Alexandre. Primero, ¿puedo saber cuáles son
esos cientos de lexemas occidentales infiltrados en la
lengua más hablada del mundo? En chino, teléfono no se dice
"te-le-fo-no" ni nada parecido, sino "diàn huà" que es un
compuesto plenamente chino; y lo mismo pasa con la inmensa
mayoría de los términos técnicos que las lenguas occidentales
nombran casi todas de la misma manera con préstamos grecolatinos,
pero que el chino nombra a su modo usando sus propios medios.
Y el chino no es para nada la única lengua que sabe usar sus
propios medios para nombrar al teléfono, la tele, etc.

Segundo, también hay un montón de raíces no occidentales en
esa supuesta "mayoría de lenguas del mundo", como "café",
"chocolate", "tabú"...


>     Tu manía antihechos llega a no reconocer algo tan evidente en la
>historia de la interlingüística como que los volapuquistas se pasaron en
>masa al esperanto porque estaban hartos de tener que aprenderse vocabulario
>de memoria.

Eso sí que es deformar los hechos. Los volapükistas se
pasaron al esperanto porque el movimiento volapükista
estaba en decadencia.

Por la misma razón que tú propones, cualquier hablante
no occidental se hartará de tener que aprenderse
el vocabulario del tino de memoria y estará encantado
de pasarse a la primera interlengua que surja basada en
su lengua materna.


>     Reflexiona sencillamente: ¿por qué te hacen tan poco caso dentro y
>fuera
>de la interlingüística cuando propones raíces semánticas muy poco
>occidentales para una buena lengua planificada auxiliar?

Oh... ¿y acaso es que al tino, tan supuestamente basado en
los datos y hechos empíricos y verificados, le han hecho
mucho caso? Hasta donde yo sé, ni siquiera aquí, en Auxlang,
le han hecho caso más allá de un par de personas, sino muy al
contrario, ha sido ferozmente criticado de antiinternacional
y "vulgarizante".


>Si partes de que la
>gente tiene intereses legítimos y de que no es completamente idiota, puedes
>sacar conclusiones.

¿A qué te refieres con "intereses legítimos"? ¿A que los
occidentales tienen el interés "legítimo" de querer imponer
su propio vocabulario en base a su previa colonización
militar, económica y cultural del mundo?

Saludos,
Javier

_________________________________________________________________
Charle con sus amigos online usando MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

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December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
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September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
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February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
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June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
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July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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September 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
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October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
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May 1997, Week 3
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May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
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April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1

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