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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2002, Week 3

CONLANG September 2002, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Order of letters

From:

Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:53:16 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (57 lines)

Christophe wrote:
>Well, taking example from existing natlang scripts, you can do both. The
order
>in the Roman, Greek and Cyrillic alphabets, as well as the order in the
Arabic
>and Hebbrew abjads they are related to, seems rather random, and its only
>explanation is historical: the script they all derive from had already a
>corresponding order. Why this order and not another is pure guess. I don't
know
>personally :)) .

Neither do I.  But the Semites/Phoenicians must have got it from some
Egyptian arrangement, no? IIRC /alef/ was a picture of, and the word for,
'head of an ox' or maybe just 'ox'; /bet/ was 'house' etc.

>On the other hand, IIRC the Devanagari abugida is ordered
>logically, or at least according to some logic of Sanskrit grammarians.

It was once my job to edit an Indonesian professor's English trans. of his
Old Javanese-Indonesian lexicon.  The order used there was basically that of
Devanagari, with a couple Javanese peculiarities:
1. Vowels: a,  schwa, Jav. "long" schwa |÷~eu|, i, u, r, e, ai, o (Skt. long
vowels were used in loans, but his ordering of them was a little random....I
think it would be a, a:..., i, i:, u, u:....)
2. Velars: k kh, g gh, N
3. Palatals: c ch, j jh, ˝
4. Retroflexed: t. t.h, d. d.h, n.
5. Dentals: t th, d dh, n
6. Labials: p ph, b bh, m
7. "Resonants": y r l w
8. Sibilants:  (pal.) S, (retro.) s., (dent.) s,  h

The upshot of this, since he had followed his Indonesian edition (full of
typos) and I didn't catch on until rather late, was five embarassing pages
of "Corrigenda and Addenda".  (No easy computer in those days, alas.)

There is also a native Javanese ordering, I suppose for teaching purposes, h
n c r k.....(hana caraka....) which when read tells a little story.  It's
cited on one of the Javanese/Old Javanese alphabet sites, of which there are
several but I don't have the specific one bookmarked....

ObConlang:  The Kash alphabet (hakanga) was modelled more or less on the
same principles:

x   k   Ng   (N occurs, final only, perversely written with ˝)
S  tS   ndZ  ˝  j
s   t   nd   n   r   l
f   p   mb  m   B  (plus w, in the writing system only, non-phonemic)
i   e   a  u  o

When recited "ha, ka, anga, ša, ca, anja, ...." it doesn't mean anything.

Related languages that preserve more sounds would go-- x, k,g,Nk, Ng, N etc.

The Gwr alphabet (in process) can probably be arranged to tell a story, no
doubt a sarcastic or naughty one.

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