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CONLANG  October 2002, Week 5

CONLANG October 2002, Week 5

Subject:

Re: [PEER REVIEW] Mutations and sound changes (longish)

From:

Peter Clark <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:32:55 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (249 lines)

        First of all, Christophe, I didn't get your reply. I only knew about it
because of bnathyuw's reply. Oddly enough, I got your subsequent replies, os
I suspect my mail server is blitzing out again. Fortunately, there's Yahoo,
so this is going to be copy/paste. Sorry for messing up the thread.
        To clear up some misunderstanding: /f/ and /v/ in Proto-Enamyn ought to be
/p\/ and /B/. I changed my mind halfway through, but forgot to change the
initial explanation.
---CG---
Well, Sanskrit is as orderly as this, and nobody ever said it was the product
of an academician in an ivory tower. I think the consonant system is quite
plausible (the absence of /r/ may not be that much of a problem, since /l/ is
there. At worst, you could say that it's an allophone of /l/ in certain
positions)
---
        Ok, that's good to know. /4/ could be in allophonic variation with /l/ in
Proto-Enamyn, and once /G/ -> /R/ -> /R\/, the two could merge into /r/.

---CG---
> m -> p\ ?
> n -> s ?
> J -> C ?
> N -> x ?

Now that's strange. The denasalisation is not a problem, but the devoicing is,
since it kind of implies hardening. Doesn't fit well with lenition. If you
want Proto-Enamyn to have regular mutations, I'd say:
m -> B
n -> z
J -> j\
N -> G
would be a bit more plausible. Nothing prevents you afterwards to devoice them
(to explain why those would be devoiced and not other occurences of the voiced
fricatives, you could hypothesize that they were actually not exactly
fricatives but affricates bB, dz, J\j\ and gG, which got devoiced because of
the absence of their voiceless counterpart, and then were fricativised. So
actually your original mutation would be:
m -> bB
n -> dz
J -> J\j\
N -> gG.
This change still would fit my idea of lenition, since affricates are not as
hard as stops and nasals are nasal *stops*. What do you think of this idea?).
---
        Yes, I like it. After I posted the message last night (it was late, so that's
my excuse for some stupid spelling mistakes later on), I realized that the
nasals would not devoice. Your idea for the "original" mutation works--as the
mutation system becomes increasingly grammaticalized, the stops would drop
out, leaving just /B z j\ G/.

---CG---
> p\ -> B
> B -> m
> s -> z
> z -> n
> C -> j\
> j\ -> J
> x -> G
> G -> N

I have nothing against voicing voiceless fricatives, it goes well with the
idea of lenition. But nasalising the voiced fricatives doesn't fit well the
system, unless the trigger for lenition was a previous nasal (but then why
would the nasals lose their nasalisation?). On the other hand, simply losing
the voiced fricatives would be possible. Or you could introduce approximants:
B -> w
z -> r\ (or h\ - yes, the voiced glottal fricative :)) -)
j\ -> j
G -> M\ (or G -> 0 would be nice too, it's nice to have at least one consonant
completely disappearing through mutation :))) )
which would still keep your system orderly, or add a very small bit of
disorder by adopting the z -> h\ and G -> 0 changes. Of course, you'd need to
define what those approximants become when mutated too. If we accept the idea
of lenition, then they would simply disappear entirely (or wouldn't be
influenced at all).
---
        Ah-ha! This is why I value peer review: creative alternatives! I hadn't
considered approximants. To avoid having to discover how the approximants
mutate, is it reasonable to say that they only occur within the mutation
system? (So I guess that they would be considered allophones of the voiced
fricatives.) That way, once the mutation system has been grammaticalized, the
approximants can change thusly:
w -> ua -> Ma -> a
r\ -> l
/j/ would stay, because it is found in Enamyn, and I like G -> 0 for the same
reason you do. :)
        That way, after all the sound changes occur, Enamyn would have some of the
following changes in its first mutation:
v -> a
ts -> l
k (in some instances) -> j
r -> 0
        Oh, I like that! :)

---CG---
> K -> l
> l -> ?
>

If we keep the idea of lenition, l would probably behave like those
approximants I introduced above. So if you decide that they disappear, you'd
have l -> 0 too. But if you decide that they just stay the way they are, then
you'd have l -> l too. One point in mutations is that the resulting system
doesn't need to be unambiguous. On the contrary, look at the different
mutation
systems of Celtic languages. There are usually losses of oppositions due to
mutations (like Irish /d/ and /g/ aspirate to the same /G/-/j/, and /s/ and
/t/
aspirate both to /h/). You could do the same. No need for your mutation system
to keep things unambiguous. Or what's the fun of it then? ;))))
---
        Well, I wanted to at least _start_ with an unambiguous system, so that I
could then mess it up. :) I'm willing to go back to Proto-Proto-Enamyn if I
have to; I just want some sort of foundation to work off of. I'll have to
think about the various merits of l -> 0 vs. l -> l. I guess I am leaning
toward l -> 0, but I'll have to see how it plays out...

---CG---
> System 2:
>
> p_h -> b
> p -> p\
> b -> p
> t_h -> d
> t -> s
> d -> t
> c_h -> J\
> c -> C
> J\ -> c
> k_h -> g
> k -> x
> g -> k

Strange system. It look a bit like an "inversion", with aspirates becoming
voiced and voiced becoming unvoiced, unvoiced fricativising for some reason.

> m -> B

Not m -> b to compare with other nasals?
---
        Oops, silly typo, that should be m -> b. And yes, it's a very strange system,
one that I can't explain besides waving a magic wand over it. The aspirates
becoming voiced isn't too difficult to imagine, nor the unvoiced
fricativizing, but the voiced becoming unvoiced is a bit of a stretch. As I
think about it, maybe I should have the voiced stops become nasals. But then
this means that we have a system in which m -> b and b -> m under the same
phonological conditions!

---CG---
> n -> d
> J -> J\
> N -> g
> p\ -> p
> B -> b
> s -> t
> z -> d
> C -> c
> j\ -> J\
> x -> k
> G -> g

It's a kind of hardening then? IMHO it fits well with the behaviour of the
stops, even if it would be difficult to explain it :))) .
---
        Or something. Does anyone know what conditions would lead to hardening?
There's got to be some process that could be responsible. :)

---CG---
As for the approximants I introduced earlier, if you decide to keep them, I'd
follow the example of l and mutate them into voiceless fricatives. So:
w -> p\
r\ -> s (or h\ -> s if you take this one. It looks a bit strange, but would be
natural if speakers connect h\ and s together, what they would certainly do
with the s -> h\ change)
j -> C
M\ -> x (if you take this approximant).

Of course, all this is just a starting point. You can always modify it a bit
so that you don't have to introduce new phonemes like the approximants I gave
you. But if you want Proto-Enamyn to have really regular mutations, it's a
good start I think.
---
        An interesting idea. Maybe adding approximants wouldn't be such a bad idea
after all. But it would be a little easier if they just occured only in
mutations.

---CG---
> The academician has not yet theorized on what triggered the mutations,
> mind
> you...

I thought so ;))) . With the little advice I gave you, the answer for system 1
is easy: plain ol' lenition. For system 2 it's a bit stranger, and I wouldn't
be surprised if it was the result of the merge of two separate mutations in
Proto-Proto-Enamyn ;))) . It's quite possible, once the phonological
environment triggering the change has disappeared and the change is seen only
as grammatical.
---
        Ok, I was aiming for lenition with system 1. The idea of merging two previous
systems had not occured to me; what do you think would be the best
explanation? Say, for instance, a system that deals with stops and a system
that deals with fricatives merge? Or maybe a three-way merger, in which the
stops, nasals, and fricatives all come from different systems? That would
permit b -> m and m -> b, but what a nightmare! :)

---CG---

> Then, the palatal series is lost:
>
> c -> k_j -> kj (before a vowel); c-> k_j -> k (after a vowel)
> J\ -> g_j -> gj (before a vowel); J\ -> g_j -> g (after a vowel)
> J -> n_j -> nj (before a vowel); J -> n_j -> n (after a vowel)
> C -> S *new phoneme to the language
> j\ -> G
>

So C advanced but j\ retracted... Maybe some dissimilation or something was in
play here...
---
        That's the only likely explanation I can think of. It isn't very pretty,
though, as I said. Maybe I will make it j\ -> Z -> j. Would make for some
interesting changes, as well as for a lot of glides, since I already have g
-> j!

---CG---
> Finally, we have a couple of more random sound changes at various
> times:
>
> z -> ts

How did this happen? I could see a z -> dz -> ts chain, but I have
difficulties on having the fricative getting spontaneously a stop onset.
Generally the order goes stop -> affricate -> fricative. I don't remember
ever seen the opposite order...
---
        It happened because I was getting sleepy. :) It should be z -> dz -> ts.

---CG---
> p\ -> p
> B -> v

So you would get v without f?
---
        Another mistake. p\ -> f.
        Well, it looks as though the rest of the thread has already been discussed,
so I'll leave it hear. I'm relieved to hear that the chain for G -> r is
plausible. Tell me how system 2 (or its back history) can be improved.
        Thanks,
        :Peter

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December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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