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CONLANG  November 2002, Week 1

CONLANG November 2002, Week 1

Subject:

Re: tree, dream

From:

bnathyuw <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:42:04 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (115 lines)

 --- Mat McVeagh <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >From:
Muke Tever <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> >From: "Jake X" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > On the word 'stoopit', I guess that's an
> American way of making
> >'stupid'
> > > > stupid, because they can't just do 'stoopid'
> because that's the normal
> > > > pronunciation? The word seems to have
> essentially become 'stoopid'
> > > > /stu;p@d/ here all the time, even though
> 'student' is still
> >/stSu;[log in to unmask]
> > > >
> > > My dialect doesn't have /stSu:d@nt/ at all. We
> say /stu;dent/, though
> >in my
> > > case I pronounce the /t/ with aspiration, not as
> sloppily as to have /t/
> >-->
> > > /tS/. This is similar to the way my little
> brother, when he was
> >learning to
> > > write, misspelled "tree" as "chree": because of
> the combination of
> >aspirated
> > > t-initial and American semivocalic r, he
> percieved it with the wrong
> > > phonemes. Anyway....
> >
> >I wouldn't say it was with the wrong phonemes as
> that the spelling is
> >outdated.
> >It's certainly /tSri:/ here, with /S/
> epenthetic[1]. And I wouldn't blame
> >the
> >aspiration either, because e.g., "dream" is
> /dZri:m/. [At least in my
> >lect.
> >Yours will almost certainly differ, but presumably
> not your brother's.]
> >
> > *Muke!
> >--
> >http://www.frath.net/
>
> Wow this is true. I think I may have come across
> this before, but maybe not
> this precise example. Certainly I say /'hIstS@ri/ or
> even /'hIstSj@ri/ for
> "history", /'mIstS(j)@ri/ for "mystery", instead of
> the /'hIst@ri 'mIst@ri/
> my mother tried to correct me with (or /'hIstri
> 'mIstri/, equally common).
> What gets me is that that is before a vowel.
>
> I have always thought of "tree" as /tr<o>i/ (<o> =
> voiceless diacritic in
> ASCII-IPA). The standard British /r/ is supposedly
> an alveolar approximant,
> but I have always found it to be a
> labiodental-palato-alveolar. Given the
> palato-alveolar element I suppose it could glide
> from /t{pla}/ to /S/ to
> /r{pla}{vls}/.
>
> Similarly with "dream", it's definitely not just
> /drim/, sounds more like
> /dZrim/. Again, the stop on the front is probably
> palato-alveolar in
> anticipation of the /r/, and glides thru a fricative
> on the way.
>
> And you can kind of see why - the stop has become
> assimilated to the place
> of the approximant (if you agree with me that it's
> really palato-alveolar
> not alveolar), and fricatives are a method
> physically in between stops and
> approximants. So it's almost inevitable that
> eventually a fricative will be
> put in there.
>
> In a certain book a place is named "Jeamland" based
> on a child's
> pronunciation of "Dreamland". That really is a
> childish (mis)pronunciation,
> since it omits the labiodental aspect of /r/. But it
> replaces /r/ with...
> /Z/, forming an affricate /dZ/.
>

labiodental-alveolar-palatal. aha, that's where we
diverge. i'm pretty sure my british /r/ is only
labiodental-alveolar, which would be why i don't ever
jream about chrees.

then again, it could just be that i have a strange
pronunciation, as i used to lisp my /r/s as a pure
labiodental ( a la north london jewish english )

bn

=====
bnathyuw | landan | arR
stamp the sunshine out | angelfish
your tears came like anaesthesia | phèdre

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