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CONLANG  January 2003, Week 2

CONLANG January 2003, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Several phonetic questions

From:

Joe <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 12 Jan 2003 16:51:04 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (106 lines)

> > Does [?] make a sound? or is it just a lack of sound? I've heard that
> > [?]
> > occurs in the English phrase "uh oh!". It seems like there is a subtle
> > sound at the end of "uh" which makes it sound kind of like "uht". I've
> > heard that some languages use [?] as a phoneme. This true?
>
> Yes. In Arabic, for instance, the glottal stop /?/ is a phoneme and is
> different from an absence of sound. To listen to the sound itself, go to
> http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/, click on "Consonants (pulmonic)" and
> click on the symbol for the glottal stop to hear it pronounced. Your
> description is correct. Some English dialects do pronounce final t's as [?]
> (you seem to know already about phones and phonemes. So you probably know
> that this is described as [?] being an *allophone* of /t/ when word final).
> It may be your case. Then you just have always pronounced glottal stops all
> your life. You just didn't recognise them for what they are as they are not
> phonemic in English, and thus you perceive them as different consonants.

Not just word final, but syllable final.  (ie. Apartment [@pA:?mn=?]).  It
often elides(I think that's the right word), too (ie.What's your name?
[wO(?)s yO: nejm).




> > What is a rhotic? I've heard somewhere that r sounds are called
> > rhotics,
> > but I rarely hear that term used. Are [r] [4] [r\] [r'] [r\'] [R\] and
> > [R]
> > all rhotics?
>
>
> > Is [X] the harsh "ch"/"kh" sound of Hebrew?
>
> I thought this was [x], but I don't know enough Hebrew to be sure.

Can't you find [X] in some dutch dialects, as in goed, [Xu:t].

> > Is [x] the Spanish "j" sound?
>
> In Castillian Spanish yes.

Isn't it the same in nearly all, if not all Spanish dialects

> > Is [j\] the Spanish "y" sound?

That's a voiced palatal stop, right?

> In some dialects of Spanish yes.
>
> > [w] is described as labio-velar. Does that mean [w] is a rounded [M\]?
> > (M\
> > = velar approximant)
>
> Basically yes. That's often an explanation I use to teach people about
> [M\]. Unround a [w] and you basically get a [M\] :)) .
>
>  If so, since [w] is the semi-vowel equivalent of
>
> > [u],
> > is [M\] the semi-vowel equivalent of [M]? (M = unrounded [u])
>
> Spot on!
>
>  That
>
> > would
> > certainly explain the similar representation.
>
> The similarity of the IPA symbols is certainly due to that. The similarity
> of the X-SAMPA sounds is probably related to it too.
>
> > whats the difference between [a] and [A]? I've heard that [a] is the
> > vowel
> > in "father" while [A] is the vowel in "ought", but I think I pronounce
> > these vowels the same way. Is this because "father" and "ought" use
> > the
> > same vowel in some dialects of English but not in others? Or is it
> > just
> > that the difference is very subtle? or what?
>
> English is the worst example to use when trying to explain sound
> differences, because of the proliferation of different dialects with
> different phonologies. What is pronounced differently by one won't be by
> another, and the different vowel systems are just uncomparable. The
> difference between [a] and [A] is a difference of backness (and note that I
> was taught that "father" used [A], and "ought" [O:]), i.e. they are
> pronounced exactly the same, except that [a] is articulated at the front of
> the mouth (it sounds "clearer", in some way), while [A] is articulated at
> the back of it (it's created between the back of the tongue and the throat
> for me for instance).


In RP, father is [fA:D@], and ought is [O:t](when speaking colloquially,
[O:?]) In some dialects of American, they're both [A] and in some dialects
they're [a] and [A:], respectively.  Depends where you come from.

> Note that there is no such thing as a "subtle" difference in phonetics.
> Languages that make a phonemic difference make it whatever the absolute
> difference between the sounds. [a] and [A] used to be separate phonemes in
> French for instance, and people didn't have problems to distinguish them. I
> know I still don't since the loss of that distinction happened during my
> lifetime :)) .

Well, I have more problems distinguishing [a] and [o].  [A] and [a] sound
different to me...

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