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CONLANG  January 2003, Week 2

CONLANG January 2003, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Introduction

From:

Sally Caves <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:01:02 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (192 lines)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Marie Parker-Allen" <[log in to unmask]>

> Hello, everyone, I'm new.  My name is Sarah, I currently live in Long
Beach,
> CA (it's a little south of Los Angeles, and less than 15 miles from
> Disneyland, for those unfamiliar with local geography).

Ha vyko, Hvenmanrivar!  (Hi there! Welcome, visitor!)   I can't compete with
the Christophe's and the Jan's of the list who are the first to greet a
newcomer!  So, just accept my welcome!  It looks like we have three things
in common.  First, you are an inventor of languages.  Second, you are
another Sarah.  I'm a Sarah with a "Sally" diminutive.  I was Sally all my
childhood, teenage, and early adult years.  In Wales, I decided to reinstate
my formal "Sarah" name, and I am that to this day, except on this list,
where I'm "Sally" again.

Third, the home of my childhood is Glendora, CA; my cousins and friends live
in Long Beach and Costa Mesa.  I spent my last trip to Disneyland with my
husband last Christmas.  It was awful, so crowded and so long to get on
rides that eventually we just went home. :) You might know Glendora: it's
nestled in the foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains, between Azusa and San
Dimas, about twenty minutues east of Pasadena.  (Azusa featured in Jack
Benny's old joke about the names of towns in the Los Angeles Basin:
"Anaheim, Azusa, and CUCAMONGA!")  My parents still live there, and every
year I go home.  Maybe we could meet.

> I studied a few
> languages intermittantly from early elementary school on; Spanish, a bit
of
> French, Latin, and a smattering of German through high school (I was home
> schooled for 7th-12th grades, so the quality of my language instruction
was
> variable, especially in terms of conversation practice; I learned during
> these years a great deal about how tiresome grammar all by itself can be,
> and all the many reasons to hate French).

Moi, j'adore la langue francaise!  For me, growing up in a suburb of Los
Angeles, I was given every reason to hate SPANISH (pace all my Spanish,
Mexican, Puerto Rican, and Argentinian Conlang friends!).  I took two
courses in French in College (having taken nine years of Spanish in grammar,
middle, and high school), but I ended up living in Geneva Switzerland for
two years, where I was forced to speak French.  How ironic.  Now it
surpasses my Spanish.  I will add that learning Spanish in fifth grade is
what inspired me to invent my own language, so it's not that I hate it.
It's that it was the ONLY language for years that we were force fed, and by
non-native speakers, all except for one nice man.  He gave us lots of pinata
parties, lots of Mexican breakfasts;  I was asked to take an exchange
student from Mexico City around Glendora, and she told me, in Spanish, that
she looked down on the accent of my Mexican high school teacher.  "He's the
kind of man who would say "Estoy moppiendo el suelo," she told me with great
disdain.  I was crushed and fascinated.  There were levels, registers,
DIALECTS in Mexico, and horrendous class differences.  ZOWIE!!!  But my poor
teacher!  I was also indignant.  Had *I* picked up any destable
Spanish-Americanisms?

> I'm a political science and
> history major, and chose Russian for my language in college; I got through
> the basic first year introductory stuff and plan to learn the language
more
> thoroughly when I've got my degree.  Preferably with better textbooks ^_^
> Most of my language training in college was at my soon-to-be alma mater,
> Ohio State University, but I've taken some of my units at UCLA, as well.

Ah, so you are at UCLA!  The graduate school for the famous Matt Pearson,
inventor of the famous and excellent Tokana!  Also the home of several
colleagues of mine.  You are unusual, as a conlanger, in being a political
science and history major.  Many of us are linguistics and computer science
majors.  I was an English major way back in the early seventies, and I got
my Ph.D. in Berkeley in medieval literature (did my diss on Old English and
Middle Welsh poetry).

> Recently I decided to create my own language, and haven't the foggiest
idea
> of where to start,

Have you seen Jeffrey Henning's "langmaker"?  http://www.LangMaker.com.
Click on "langmaker.com services."

> so I just started with vocabulary and grammar and
> everything else simultaneously, as well as developing the appropriate
> culture to go with it.  I'm getting the impression that I am developing
two
> separate languages simultaneously, for two different fictional
environments.
> I'm a sucker for Tolkienesque stories, and actually am slowly trying to
> teach myself Quenya too (because there are just too many extra hours in
the
> day -- not).  My biggest problem remains charting my own path in terms of
> how my language sounds (and also in terms of grammar); everything I've
come
> up with so far sounds or is structured too much like Latin.  I don't
> understand phonetic markings at all, and this is my next big task, which I
> hope to have mastered before the State of Union address (but
realisitically,
> probably won't have finished before whatever the military is going to do
in
> the Middle East, is underway).  In any event, I'm probably not going to
talk
> much for a while, except to ask questions.  Then again, the last list I
said
> that to, won't let me forget it, as I send at least a message a day.  ^_^

Give us a sample, Sarah, of one of your languages.  I'm curious to see how
"latinesque" it really is.  On this list, you'll be introduced to language
types that are remarkably different from Indo-European language, like the
ergative and active languages, trigger languages, incorporative languages,
object-conjugated verbs, Fluid-S, you name it. :)

> I'm curious about one thing: are there many women who are actively
> generating conlangs (I haven't found any online...)?  They seem to be few
> and far between in this area of creative writing, though they overpower
> other genres (e.g. almost every piece of fan fiction I've ever read, was
by
> a woman).

Suzette Hadin Elgin is one of the most famous of conlangers.  She's a
linguist at I forget what university, and she wrote a trilogy called _Native
Tongue_.  Her LAadan is a language that is developed in her novels, and is
meant especially for women.   Ursula Le Guin is said to be a conlanger, but
I have reservations about that, despite some of the linguistic information
she gives about the invented words in some of her novels.  I read an article
in which she was interviewed twenty-five years ago (so she might have
changed over the years) in which she is asked how she thinks up the words
and names for her stories.  Did she invent whole languages like Tolkien?  Oh
no, she said, smoking her pipe.  She was not as interested in language
invention as she was in fiction.  She found words that she thought matched
the strange ideas in her head.  She gave as an example "Omelas," from "Those
Who Walk Away from Omelas."  "Omelas, Omelas:  the ideal city, everything
perfect, everything that is good dependent on the torture of a single child.
Omelas is an anagram, she said, for "O Salem," perhaps.  Whatever it was,
though, it was an intuitive invention.  Now she may have changed.  _Always
Coming Home_ may represent a more involved use of conlanging on her part.  I
know that the novel has some linguistic notes at the end of it, but I'm
still not convinced that she is as compulsively dedicated as some of the
rest of us are to the nitty gritty details of our inventions.  I, for one,
have been working on Teonaht for almost forty years; it's like a nursing a
child that will never quite grow up.  Someone told me that it was incredibly
arrogant of me to think that I could invent a language and make it real,
give it a vocabulary that is workable, and writeable.  Well, so be it.

As for the women on this listserv (and I'm going to forget people): there is
me, there is Amanda Babcock, Irina Rempt (silent these days--I think she's
writing her novel), Mia Soderquist, Nicole Dobrowolski, Nicole Perrin,
Arthaey Angosii, Mau Rauszer,  Sylvia Sotomeyer, Yoon Ha Lee....oooh... my
mind is beginning to go blank... and now you.  The list is male heavy,
though; I tried to account for this in 1998, wondering if women were less
drawn to compulsive hobbies that didn't immediately serve some kind of
practical purpose (i.e., women are less likely to be "geeks" or appreciate
"geek" pastimes.  We women have been raised by women who were raised by
women who have told us that we must make our lives serviceable and
practical.  This goes way back.  The tremendous pressure on us to be
human-service oriented--to be a "candy striper" in an Old Folks Home [this
dates me] when all I wanted to do was sit in my room and draw pictures and
read books and invent melodies on my recorder).  My "Lunatic Survey" then
was an effort to understand why we do this, what pleasure principle it
touches in the brain, what the demographics of the list are (mostly men,
mostly white men, I think, mostly American or European, a striking number of
gay men), and a handful of women.  A lot of the list is given over to
discussing the finer points of linguistics or language use.  Linguistic
skill is related to mathematical and musical skill, skills that have
traditionally been associated with men and traditionally encouraged in men.
And then there is the use of the computer, and going on line.  I think many
many more women these days are willing to "go public" about their work,
their fantasies, etc. than before.  I think the Internet encourages the
discussion of private hobbies and creative work, and more women are
beginning to participate in it.

I invite you to take my Lunatic Survey 2, called "New Survey:
Celticonlangs," even if you haven't got a developed language.  The last few
parts might appeal to you, and would be useful to me.  I'm especially
interested in knowing how you came upon this enthusiasm for inventing
languages, and whether you were prompted either by Tolkien or by knowing
something about this list.  If it is independent of either of these
influences, even better.

I'll forward you the new survey, Sarah.

Meanwhile, who was it gave me the link to the Celtic Conlang list?  Would it
be too much trouble to get that again?
Nwetis firrimby,

Sally Caves
[log in to unmask]
Niffodyr tweluenrem lis teuim imo an
"Even the gods have retractible claws"
                    from _The Gospel of Bastet_
Eskkoat ol ai sendran, rohsan nuehra celyil takrem bomai nakuo.
"My shadow follows me, putting strange, new roses into the world."
                    from _The God of Cloak's Wardrobe_, by Araiisai Jy  :)
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/whatsteo.html

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February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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