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CONLANG Home

CONLANG  January 2003, Week 3

CONLANG January 2003, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Comparison of philosophical languages

From:

Sally Caves <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:44:17 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (204 lines)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Padraic Brown" <[log in to unmask]>


> --- Andrew Nowicki <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Sally Caves wrote:
>
> > Very interesting post! I agree that a rigid
> > taxonomical language does not make sense.

Just to clarify, Andrew Nowicki wrote the above, not me. :)  I offered the
definition of a seventeenth-century philosophical language, along with
several other people on the list.  Andrew politely offered that it was
"interesting."

Padraic:
> Then why try to foist one on an unsuspecting
> world? Every post you've made about your auxlang
> has implied if not outright spelled out a
> taxonomical language. Look at the words you've
> given and their "translations". Every single one
> is an exercise in sorting and taxonomy.

I agree with Padraic, Andrew.

Andrew:
> > Of all the languages that
> > I know Ygyde is the most promising because it
>
> OK. You've invoked Throckmorton's Law three times
> now. That's QUITE ENOUGH, thank you!

Throckmorton's Law must have some bearing on the well-understood rule on
CONLANG  that it is generally considered irrelevant and a little obnoxious
to be "selling" your language as the best, the most interesting, the most
promising, the easiest, the funniest, etc. etc. because, and please read my
lips, Andrew, CONLANG is not a list that advocates, anymore, for the most
promising, easiest, funniest, most interesting auxlangs.  In fact, the
superlative, or even the comparative, is considered quite bad form.  Nobody
here who has any manners says "I think X is the best conlang of all!"   We
can express admiration for each other, but this isn't a contest.  Years ago,
CONLANG was a list for auxlangers and artlangers, but that has changed,
Andrew.  You really should take the advice of the more vocal members of this
group, who look upon your advocacy with some amused hostility, and sell your
wares on AUXLANG.  That's not an invitation to leave us; but you don't seem
to understand us yet.  Maybe it's an invitation to stop boasting, or even
defending, and just start listening.

> > vegetable = obiby = "noun anatomical part of a
> > multicellular plant food"
> > carrot = odibiby = "noun long anatomical...
> > food"
> > cauliflower = ocibiby = "noun sexual
> > anatomical... food"
> > corn = otybiby = "noun high anatomical... food"
> > garlic = olubiby = "noun smelly anatomical...
> > food"
> > lettuce = okubiby = "noun lightweight
> > anatomical... food"
> > onion = ojibiby = "noun optical anatomical...
> > food"
> > parsley = olibiby = "noun medical anatomical...
> > food"
> > potato = opebiby = "noun warm anatomical...
> > food"
>
> OK. So you replace Sally's ellilli ellillo
> ellilla ellillylally by ollibby ollibbo ollibbu
> ollibbinabbyo.

Agreed.  There's no difference much that I can see.  And I had just made
those up.  And BEFORE I had even seen your example!  (I can't remember
Wilkins' actual categories but they are very much like that.  Polysyllables
for like things that sound all alike)

Andrew:
> > > > When you learn a new language, you do not
> > > > walk around with dictionaries,

Me:
> > > Sure you do.

Andrew:
> > I did not use dictionaries when I was learning
> > my mother tongue.

Padraic:
> Note that you specified "new langauge" not
> "mother language".

Ditto.  I responded assuming that Andrew meant learning a new language, not
a mother tongue.  As for learning a mother tongue, children have been doing
that with ease for millennia.  It doesn't take a philosophical language to
make it any easier for a brain, equipped as it is for that, to learn
associations for thousands of arbitrary sounds. And as a number of our
listmembers have pointed out to you, Andrew (I included), your method makes
memorization harder, actually.  Language is based on difference and personal
associations for sounds, not ready-made ones.  Not words designed to
describe what they signify.  Furthermore, your system is culturally based,
to boot.  Just as Wilkins' was.  Who's to say that onion has to be described
as an eye-irritant?  In another mindset, or another culture, an onion is a
layered root.  It is in Teonaht.  Or that garlic has to be "smelly
vegetable"?  I love garlic.  It has no more smelliness to me than rue.  And
a lot less smelliness than a rotten potato.  And how are you defining
vegetable?  In Teonaht, there is no distinction between fruits and
vegetables, and I dare say a number of cultures are like that.  Understand,
please, that these are rhetorical questions.

Sally:
> > > But this system can only go so far.  Let
> > > anyone stray
> > > from it by introducing a new word, or let
> > > it evolve
> > > as all languages do, and it will start
> > > developing idiosyncracies and
> > > irregularities and
> > > eventually maggelities.
> > > <G> Unless you try to "fix" it-- Jonathan
> > > Swift's mistake.
> >
> > Ygyde's grammar imposes some standards that
> > cannot
> > be abolished.

Any part of any language is abolishable.  That's crap.  Speakers, not
prescriptive grammarians, decide on the shape of their language as it
changes with time.

> > If Ygyde becomes a mother tongue,
> > idiosyncrasies are most likely in the names of
> > flora, fauna, food, and dress.

Says who?  Why not sex, surfing, education, technology ESPECIALLY, .... God
what a desolate language it is that affixes the meanings of words and
considers itself immutable.  Look at all the words for "urinate":  piss,
pee, take a wiz, point Percy at the Porcelain, tinkle, spend a penny, go to
the bathroom...   There's no rule that says that flora, fauna, food, and
dress, are the only categories given to idiosyncratic development.  Look at
what the computer has done to our vocabulary.

Padraic (getting about as frustrated as I am):
> You don't get it, do you? Language doesn't work
> that way. Idiosyncrasies pop up _everywhere_ in a
> language.
>
> > Basic ideas and
> > technical names have no reason to drift into
> > idiosyncrasies.

TECHNICAL NAMES, Andrew?  Technology is changing under our noses as we
speak.  See above.

Padraic:
> Sure they do. They do it all the time. You come
> across as a person who, while an eager conlanger,
> is not that familiar with the realities you're
> dealing with.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Padraic.  Maybe, before you go on with your
project, you should more closely examine some things about language, the
brain, language history, and especially the history of universal languages
and why they have all failed.  At least read Saussure for starters.  It's
not because IALs are not "easy" enough.  If it's an easy language you wnat,
you might do as someone suggested and scrap the whole "philosophical"
design.  You make it harder, not easier, to memorize words, and you assign
cultural meanings to your words, which are basically descriptions of things,
that not every culture might share.  So it's useless as a world language.

Andrew:
> > Or we can guess the meaning from the context.
> > Television,
> > Internet, fast food chains, and globalization
> > may prevent idiosyncrasies.
>
> Nah. They just create more space for
> idiosyncrasies to happen in and more people to
> make them.

And more new words.

Okay, look.  People are getting a little intense here, myself included.  I
vote that we put a moratorium on this thread.  Andrew, if you want to talk
about the details of your language, that's fine.  That's appropriate in this
venue.  But no more advocacy or propaganda.  Take that to AUXLANG, please.
You haven't really answered any of our harder questions.  Perhaps the
frustration I'm detecting and feeling among our members is that you don't
seem to absorb what some people are telling you, including the real
hostility towards insensitive proselytizing.  This list is full of people
who have spent their lives studying languages and how they work; they are
worth listening to.  None of us "sell" our languages to each other.  Maybe
we can lay this discussion to rest now.  If Ygyde has any merit as an
interesting conglang, that will come out--or not--and we welcome you.  If
all you want to do is argue how it is workable as the best and easiest, and
funniest, and most interesting auxlang, the "Linux" of invented languages
that we all ought to put links to on our websites so that you can help sell
it, then you're talking to the wrong group of people.

Enough said.
Sally Caves
[log in to unmask]
Eskkoat ol ai sendran, rohsan nuehra celyil takrem bomai nakuo.
"My shadow follows me, putting strange, new roses into the world."

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December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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