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CONLANG  January 2003, Week 3

CONLANG January 2003, Week 3

Subject:

Re: More on Eihdan

From:

Christophe Grandsire <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:47:01 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (166 lines)

En réponse à Joseph Fatula <[log in to unmask]>:

>
> No, the so-called prepositions follow a different set.
>

But then it seems you're contradicting yourself. When you talked about the
animacy hierarchy, you were discussing about |htea|, which you called yourself
a preposition. So, maybe there's no contradiction in the language's grammar,
but there's certainly one in your explanations.

>
> It's rather like that, but then again, what is a preposition in any
> other
> language but this?  The prepositions indicate what sort of
> relationship
> exists between the two nouns, but with the aspect markers, they pick up
> more
> verb-like qualities.
>

But a verb also indicates what sort of relationship exists between two (or even
three or more) words, called usually "subject" and "object". A *preposition*
doesn't indicate the relationship between two nouns, but the function of one
(afterwards, if that noun in this function affects another noun, it's a
consequence of the function, not of the presence of a preposition). In other
words, according to your own definitions, and if you want to use grammatical
terms as they are commonly accepted, you should call your "so-called
prepositions" "auxiliary verbs".

>
> It's either a rather static, noun-heavy, dependant clause, or it's a
> somewhat verb-like prepositional phrase.  I agree with your analysis,
> and
> I'm looking for ways to keep it in the grey area between the two.
>

That's the whole fun of things isn't it? :)))

>
> Yes, there are noun classes.  Both pronouns and nouns have a class
> associated with them, so nouns in the sea class are referred to with
> |ourul|.  There are eleven classes.
>

I'm curious of those classes. Are they named after an important member of them,
like your use seems to imply? Are they "logical" (all humans in the same class,
all water things in another, etc...) or do they have strange members (which may
be justified conculturally, like Dyirbal's famous "women, birds and dangerous
things" gender - have I got that right? :)) -).

> The so-called prepositions have a fixed relationship existing between
> the
> noun before and the noun after, regardless of animacy.  If the
> preposition
> is |inda|, then X is a member of Y, no matter what class the two nouns
> belong to.
>

OK, I think I begin to understand. "Prepositions" use a fixed order, while the
postposed verb works with animacy. Am I right? Neat system if it works this
way :) .

>
> Good to know that something like this is plausible.
>

And even with this new analysis, I still think it's plausible. Add a
concultural explanation for the strange use of terms like "prepositions" here,
and I'll be happy with it ;)) .

>
> |teu| has no meaning when used without a verb.  It's not quite the same
> sort
> of particle as the other mood particles, more like an adverb.
>

I see...

>
> As mentioned above, prepositions work according to a fixed order,
> verbs
> according to animacy.
>

I think I understand now. Your explanation was unclear as it seemed like your
discussion over animacy applied to |htea|.

>
> Let me explain the other suffixes on the nouns.  First, a noun can take
> a
> suffix to indicate number.  There are seven different number
> categories.
> Depending on the noun's class, it has an implicit number associated with
> it.
> So, for example, |udeiht| is the root word meaning "mushrooms", as nouns
> of
> that class are plural by default.
>

Just like feminine nouns in Maggel!! :)) I find it neat to have some nouns
which are plural by default, and add a "singular" mark to make them singular.

> The second suffix indicates the speaker's knowledge of the object.
> Evidentiality, in other words.  So a mushroom that I am aware of would
> be
> |udeihtundihda|.
>

Ah! Neat... I'm thinking of adding evidentiality in Maggel, to make it a bit
less IE-like, but I'm thinking of adding it to the verbal conjugation.

>
> azgan + -awhu = azganarhu
> /aZan/ + /aw_0u/ = /aZana4_0u/
>
> yhürhe + -aihd = yhüseaiz
> /j_0u:4_0e/ + /aiD/ = /j_0u:seaiz/
>

This consonant strengthening may be explained by final consonant weakening
sound changes, and the other phenomenon looks a bit like consonant harmony,
that I've been using in Tj'a-ts'a~n (the |tj'a| in the name of the language is
a class prefix, which suffers both vowel harmony - the prefix took the front
unrounded |'a| /a/ instead of the back rounded |a| /Q/ because of the vowel of
the root - and consonant harmony - the consonant becomes |tj| /t_j/ because the
first consonant of the root is a voiceless stop -. With other roots, the prefix
could have been |ja| /jQ/, |nj'a| /n_ja/, |tja| /t_jQ/, etc...). All extremely
plausible, AFAIK.

>
> I've been trying pretty hard to come up with alternate ways of
> expressing
> basic sentences for some of the non-human languages of my conworld.
> Eihdan
> is actually *supposed* to be a conlang, used by creatures that have no
> real
> need for a language of their own.
>

Telepathic? Why would they even make a language then? :)) Or do they have
conlangers (and other artists) like us, who like to do things for no
utilitarian purpose? ;))))

> I have another non-human language that solves sentence problems in a
> different way as well.  Would you (or anyone else) be interested in
> some
> info on that?
>

I would , personally :) .

> Either way, thanks for all the input.  That makes the whole process
> really
> work, when someone is kind enough to critique the material.
>

Indeed! That's why I've been trying to give as constructive critic as possible.
I think I've now understood clearly the system, and I find it rather neat.

Christophe.

http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr

Take your life as a movie: do not let anybody else play the leading role.

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December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
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September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 3
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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May 2004, Week 3
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July 2003, Week 3
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July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
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April 2003, Week 5
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February 2003, Week 1
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January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
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November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
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July 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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