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AUXLANG  March 2003, Week 3

AUXLANG March 2003, Week 3

Subject:

Re: The need for an alternative

From:

Javier BF <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:53:38 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (332 lines)

> > Educational value? That *should* have??
> > What are you talking about? An IAL should be a
> > tool for COMUNICATION, not a tool for spreading
> > the education about some privileged
> > cultures/languages.
>
>As long as the world looks as it does,

Then, do you think the world is going to
look as it does today forever? Have a look
at how the world looked when Esperanto was
designed and then have a look a today's world.
Then think about the features that are present
in Esperanto, such as feminine derived from
masculine, because those were the common
thing to have in a language among the "civilized"
people in 1889.


>it is just hampering persons having them
>learning a language wich has nothing common with
the Western languages, e.g.
>English and Spanish.

And then you really think that non-Westerners
are so in love with Western languages that they
can't do without them and it would be a hampering
for them not having to become acquainted with
them compulsorily?


>Our oppinions are different here. I believe that an auxlang must have as
>many
>additional features than just communication as possible as long as it is
>mainly
>idealism and curiosity that make us learn them.

What is different between you and I here is that
you believe that the knowledge of Western languages
and culture is something unavoidable or something
that is more worthwhile than the knowledge of other
languages and cultures which you regard as being
just of local interest. I strongly disagree with
that Eurocentric picture of the world. There are
many non-Westerners who couldn't care less about
the Western languages and culture, and if many
of them are learning English today that's just
because English is the de facto lingua franca
and they are required to learn that lingua franca
if they want to have a good job.


>It has not been effortless to me to learn the English I know or Spanish (as
>much as I have had a need for). Interlingua has acted in the positive way
>for
>me to give me a summing up of the international vocabulary. That's OK with
>me.

You make "international" a synonym of "pan-Western".
I simply don't agree with that.


>My experiences from teaching Swedish to people with Arabic, Persian and
>East
>Asian background has also indicated that those who have the best success
>are
>those who already know some English, French or Spanish.

Because those languages have been imposed as
lingua francas by the Westerners upon the rest
of the world. You seem to believe that that
situation of dominance by the Western languages,
culture and people is fair and doesn't need
a change. I don't agree at all with you in
this respect either.


>So I imagine that if an
>Arabic, Persian or Chinese teacher had the opportunity to teach a bunch of
>kids
>interlingua this would give them a head start into the Western Languages
>that
>they have to learn in our days.

They have to learn those languages because
they are the lingua francas of today, not
because they find them very interesting or
more worth learning than Arabic or Chinese.
What would be the point of telling them to
learn Interlingua (which is supposed to
replace English, French and Spanish as the
world lingua franca) on the basis that
Interlingua would help them to learn those
languages that they would no longer need
to learn because they would no longer be
the lingua francas of the world?


>Because when they come to the West and have to learn English or some other
>European langauge (Swedish, Finnish) they will be better off if they
>already
>have had the strange things in Standard Western explained to them by a good
>teacher who knows their own language).

And then you think that all the people
outside the West are only thinking of
coming to the West?


> > >A movement
> > >for a non-Euroclone, succeeding in gaining a broad following will be
>able
> > >to seal
> > >off the outside world from them and would form a kind of language sect.
> >
> > Oh, yes, sure. So, if you don't connect with
> > the Westerners, as one wouldn't do with e.g.
> > a Chinoclone or an Araboclone, then you're
> > sealed from the outside world. I can't believe
> > the degree of ego- and euro-centrism you're
> > showing here, really.
>
>As I understand the thing Chinese and Arabic are - in their written forms -
>a
>sort of "transnational written hight-languages" that the persons using them
>have to learn beside their own dialect, which is in many cases more of a
>language than dialect.

That's no more true than standard English being
a "transnational written high-language". The
English native speakers speak their own dialect
that may result nearly unintelligible for the
speakers of other dialects, not to mention
for the foreigners that only learn standard
English.


>But as both the Arab and the Chinese worlds are highly
>censored domains - as is my picture of them

Your picture of the rest of the world
is certainly very distorted in my sincere
opinion.


>English is more worth wile
>learning than Chinese or Arabic provided you are not going to live in the
>countries where the languages are spoken, because then you _should_ learn
>them,
>no discussion about that.

That's just because English is the lingua franca
of today, but an IAL is supposed to replace English
as the lingua franca, not to be an aid to go on
learning and using English as the de facto
lingua franca.


>But I will only take care of my own problem. And I am here in Sweden. The
>question might be put seriously if I at all should take an interest in
>something else than English. Am I not just thoughing away lots of time
>trying
>to learn even Spanish?!

Yes, it seems you can't see further than your
own little world.


>And I say "No!" Through the French I know from school, the Spanish and
>Interlingua I have learnt on my own I have widended my horizons. My efforts
>in
>learning Spanish have aided my Interlingua and my interlingua has aided my
>comprehension of French and Spanish. This has been a benefit for me.

Because you are interested in Western languages
and culture, which are the languages and
culture of your area. But there are many people
in the world who are much more interested in
the languages and culture of *their* area than
in the languages and culture of a foreign distant
land which only reminds them of imperialistic
oppression.


>What would I earn from knowing Arabic here in Sweden. To read the official
>analyses in Al Ahram? Hmm, perhaps, but are the results worth the time
>invested. Perhaps in a more intelligent person than the undersigned.

And what do you think an Arab would earn learning
English, French or Spanish when English, French
or Spanish were replaced by a conIAL as the world
lingua franca?


> > Oh, and so only European languages are worth
> > learning then? What about an Araboclone which
> > would drastically increase the worldwide
> > knowledge of a language that one third of the
> > world's population believes to be the language
> > used directly by God to reveal the Koran to
> > the Prophet?
>
>I thougnt God Allmighty already knows all language, Swedish included! :-)

Arabic is a sacred language for the Muslims,
which account for one third of the world's
population, like it or not.


> > Or what about a Chinoclone, which would drastically increase the degree
>of
> > worldwide knowledge of a language with a
> > millenary culture and which is spoken in the
> > most populated country in the world and the
> > one with more probabilities to become the
> > leading world power in the second half of
> > this century?
>
>But of course. Both an Arabo- or a Chinoclone are interesting things, but
>they
>have not yet been invented. And I doubt that it is the right way for me to
>device such a thing. If there is interest in such a thing some Arab or
>Chinese
>will do the job.
>
>For the time being English and Spanish are the bridge-languages for me if I
>want to talk to a Hakka, a speaker of Quechua, or an Arab. And it is not
>much I
>can do about that.

And then why do you spend your efforts with
Interlingua instead of devoting that time to
improving your knowledge of the real lingua
francas of today? Interlingua only works well
for Romance speakers, not for a Chinese that
has learned English but has no idea of Spanish
or French.


> > >When you have got some million active users who all are in more or less
> > >immediate
> > >contact with eachother, then you don't have to bother about this or
>that
> > >grammatical feature. The general usage will take care of that.
> >
> > Oh... and what would happen when there's some
> > grammatical feature that causes serious problems
> > for Asians, such as compulsory number or tense,
> > that would surely be the general usage among those
> > first million active users because that's what
> > they're used to because they are native speakers
> > of Western languages?
>
>When there ar enough speakers of our Euroclone, and when these speakers are
>east-Asian or Arabic they will make the changes necessary.

It seems you don't realize that once a language
has a certain amount of speakers it is virtually
impossible to introduce changes to it. Learning
a language is a tough effort and most people
will radically refuse having to relearn what
took them so much effort to master. Just think
of the strong opposition against the proposal
of introducing some reforms into Esperanto that
Zamenhof put to the vote of the initial small
community of Esperanto speakers. Introducing
reforms, which is already rejected by a majority
within a small community of speakers, becomes
unthinkable when that community grows. There
you have the vain attempts to reform Esperanto,
to reform English spelling, etc.


>As the language is
>an artificial one, nobody's native language, it is not such a big deal if
>somebody misses the correct use of the article in one place or the other
>and if
>someone misses the use of numerus.

It's a big deal when those who tend to miss
the correct use are the native speakers of
certain languages while the native speakers
of certain others are unlikely to miss it.
That situation leads to some people having
the privilege of being _better speakers_
of the conIAL than others because of only
their being the native speakers of languages
which share with conIAL the use of features
that are difficult for the native speakers
of other languages.


> > Interlingua easy to understand?! For whom?
>
>For thouse who already have learnt the Western vocabulary one way or the
>other.

You don't seem to be aware of how many idiomatic
expressions are present in Interlingua that
are unknown for the non-Westerners who have
only learned English. Even I myself, a native
speaker of Spanish, have frequently seen you
using idiomatic expressions in Interlingua that
I find weird and idiosyncratically pertaining
to a certain language(s) and that would have
being impossible for me to decipher if I hadn't
already seen them used in some Romance language
such as Italian, French or Portuguese and thus
weren't already aware of what they mean.


>Appart from a national language the users of Interlingua will in a future,
>provided that I have understood the situation correctly, be able to
>introduce
>the changes that are necessary for them, but that thing is not for me to
>decide
>on. My most honest action will be to provide what I can do, and others will
>give their share...

About the plausibility of introducing changes
to a language that is already in use by a large
community, see above, or just think of your own
unsuccessfulness in replacing "io" with "ego"
in Interlingua.

Cheers,
Javier

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June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
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March 2006, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 1
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 1
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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