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AUXLANG  March 2003, Week 3

AUXLANG March 2003, Week 3

Subject:

Re: The need for an alternative

From:

Kjell Rehnstrom <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:32:07 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (365 lines)

Javier BF wrote:

> >As long as the world looks as it does,
>
> Then, do you think the world is going to
> look as it does today forever? Have a look
> at how the world looked when Esperanto was
> designed and then have a look a today's world.
> Then think about the features that are present
> in Esperanto, such as feminine derived from
> masculine, because those were the common
> thing to have in a language among the "civilized"
> people in 1889.

It was not more strange than to look quite normal to me a couple of miles north
of Warsaw when I learned Esperanto. The objection to suffixes expressing
feminine is a rather new one, as I understand.

> >it is just hampering persons having them
> >learning a language wich has nothing common with
> the Western languages, e.g.
> >English and Spanish.
>
> And then you really think that non-Westerners
> are so in love with Western languages that they
> can't do without them and it would be a hampering
> for them not having to become acquainted with
> them compulsorily?

Not more than I was in love with English. It was on the curriculum in my school
as in all other schools in Sweden at that time. Esperanto I learned from my
free will as I viewed this as a logic and sound thing to do, but it was not
Esperanto that might give good grades and money in an uncertain future but
English and even German at that time.


> >Our oppinions are different here. I believe that an auxlang must have as
> >many
> >additional features than just communication as possible as long as it is
> >mainly
> >idealism and curiosity that make us learn them.
>
> What is different between you and I here is that
> you believe that the knowledge of Western languages
> and culture is something unavoidable or something
> that is more worthwhile than the knowledge of other
> languages and cultures which you regard as being
> just of local interest.

When the need for Chinese and Arabic arises as these languages convey something
that people will want to know or take part in, then they will learn those
languages, regardless of what's in the curriculum of their schools.

Still when German was first foreign language in our schools, many young people
knew English better, because it conveyed cultural goods (if that's the word)
that they wanted, like scoff novels, films etc. (and as the films are and
always have been subtitled here, people heard English every time they went to
the movies).


> I strongly disagree with
> that Eurocentric picture of the world. There are
> many non-Westerners who couldn't care less about
> the Western languages and culture, and if many
> of them are learning English today that's just
> because English is the de facto lingua franca
> and they are required to learn that lingua franca
> if they want to have a good job.

Yeah! So why then invent an auxiliary language that is as far from that Lingua
Franca as possible? Have you learnt Chinese or Arabic? Pray tell me about it!

> >It has not been effortless to me to learn the English I know or Spanish (as
> >much as I have had a need for). Interlingua has acted in the positive way
> >for
> >me to give me a summing up of the international vocabulary. That's OK with
> >me.
>
> You make "international" a synonym of "pan-Western".
> I simply don't agree with that.

It is international in my view of the world.


> >My experiences from teaching Swedish to people with Arabic, Persian and
> >East
> >Asian background has also indicated that those who have the best success
> >are
> >those who already know some English, French or Spanish.
>
> Because those languages have been imposed as
> lingua francas by the Westerners upon the rest
> of the world. You seem to believe that that
> situation of dominance by the Western languages,
> culture and people is fair and doesn't need
> a change. I don't agree at all with you in
> this respect either.

Like the fact that I am writing to you in English now and not Interlingua or
Chinese. English is not my voluntary choice. The world has made the choice for
me. In the future it might make other choices, but that's the future, not know.

By arguing as you do, you appear to have a hidden agenda for me which makes me
very curious.


> >So I imagine that if an
> >Arabic, Persian or Chinese teacher had the opportunity to teach a bunch of
> >kids
> >interlingua this would give them a head start into the Western Languages
> >that
> >they have to learn in our days.
>
> They have to learn those languages because
> they are the lingua francas of today, not
> because they find them very interesting or
> more worth learning than Arabic or Chinese.

The gruesome fact is that it is not Westerners who go to China, hidden in
containers and often dying before they reach the goal, but it is Curds and
Iraqis, Chinese and others who try to get into the European Union in every
possible way. That's also why the people from these countries try to learn
English as best as they can. And they are, as far as I know, no target audience
for any IAL.


> What would be the point of telling them to
> learn Interlingua (which is supposed to
> replace English, French and Spanish as the
> world lingua franca) on the basis that
> Interlingua would help them to learn those
> languages that they would no longer need
> to learn because they would no longer be
> the lingua francas of the world?

I don't know what Interlingua is supposed to function as. It would be in a very
special situation that they would choose Interlingua as the world language. It
appears to work for me to a certain extent. As long as the languages you
mention are working as Lingue Franche I suppose Interlingua can function as a
Lingua Franca for me.


> >Because when they come to the West and have to learn English or some other
> >European langauge (Swedish, Finnish) they will be better off if they
> >already
> >have had the strange things in Standard Western explained to them by a good
> >teacher who knows their own language).
>
> And then you think that all the people
> outside the West are only thinking of
> coming to the West?

Not all of them, and those who do are not always content with what they get.

> (...)
>
> That's no more true than standard English being
> a "transnational written high-language". The
> English native speakers speak their own dialect
> that may result nearly unintelligible for the
> speakers of other dialects, not to mention
> for the foreigners that only learn standard
> English.

This is the fact with very many languages, Swedish being but one.

> >But as both the Arab and the Chinese worlds are highly
> >censored domains - as is my picture of them
>
> Your picture of the rest of the world
> is certainly very distorted in my sincere
> opinion.

Try me!


> (...) That's just because English is the lingua franca
> of today, but an IAL is supposed to replace English
> as the lingua franca, not to be an aid to go on
> learning and using English as the de facto
> lingua franca.

We don't know about that, as the generations before us in many places could
just dream about democracy.

> >But I will only take care of my own problem. And I am here in Sweden. The
> >question might be put seriously if I at all should take an interest in
> >something else than English. Am I not just thoughing away lots of time
> >trying
> >to learn even Spanish?!
>
> Yes, it seems you can't see further than your
> own little world.

Describe your world then, please!


> >And I say "No!" Through the French I know from school, the Spanish and
> >Interlingua I have learnt on my own I have widended my horizons. My efforts
> >in
> >learning Spanish have aided my Interlingua and my interlingua has aided my
> >comprehension of French and Spanish. This has been a benefit for me.
>
> Because you are interested in Western languages
> and culture, which are the languages and
> culture of your area. But there are many people
> in the world who are much more interested in
> the languages and culture of *their* area than
> in the languages and culture of a foreign distant
> land which only reminds them of imperialistic
> oppression.

Not much that I can do anything about.

> >What would I earn from knowing Arabic here in Sweden. To read the official
> >analyses in Al Ahram? Hmm, perhaps, but are the results worth the time
> >invested. Perhaps in a more intelligent person than the undersigned.
>
> And what do you think an Arab would earn learning
> English, French or Spanish when English, French
> or Spanish were replaced by a conIAL as the world
> lingua franca?

If it were on his or her school curriculum and provided that it were taught in
a good way and plus that would provide some benefit in the form of money or
cultural experience or moral satisfaction, then I suppose that our virtual Arab
would like to learn it.

But if it just came on the agenda as something the authorities had decided, it
is not improbable that they would just do the very necessary and no more to
learn it.

Like answering the question: Why are French and German decreasing in our
schools nowadays?


>
> >I thougnt God Allmighty already knows all language, Swedish included! :-)
>
> Arabic is a sacred language for the Muslims,
> which account for one third of the world's
> population, like it or not.

As I am not one of the believers I have some difficulties in understanding how
God can speak to this vast majority of speakers who cannot read his sacred
tidings, not always understanding what they are reading!

> (...)
>
> And then why do you spend your efforts with
> Interlingua instead of devoting that time to
> improving your knowledge of the real lingua
> francas of today? Interlingua only works well
> for Romance speakers, not for a Chinese that
> has learned English but has no idea of Spanish
> or French.

I am not a Romance speaker! Interlingua is my bridge to them! :-)

> (...)

> It seems you don't realize that once a language
> has a certain amount of speakers it is virtually
> impossible to introduce changes to it.

No, I don't realize that. When the Normands came to England they changed the
language substantially, as had the Danes done before them.

The Bulgars did, if I recall the facts correctly, also have a significant
influence of the people that they conquered, becoming Slavic speakers
themselves.

> Learning
> a language is a tough effort and most people
> will radically refuse having to relearn what
> took them so much effort to master. Just think
> of the strong opposition against the proposal
> of introducing some reforms into Esperanto that
> Zamenhof put to the vote of the initial small
> community of Esperanto speakers. Introducing
> reforms, which is already rejected by a majority
> within a small community of speakers, becomes
> unthinkable when that community grows. There
> you have the vain attempts to reform Esperanto,
> to reform English spelling, etc.

Decisions like "as of next Wednesday all verbs should end in -r" is not a
reform that will work, but on the other hand modern Esperanto is not at all the
same language as Zamenhof and his contemporaries wrote. Just look at the texts
and compare!

> (...)

> It's a big deal when those who tend to miss
> the correct use are the native speakers of
> certain languages while the native speakers
> of certain others are unlikely to miss it.

This is still harder with a national language, and those who are discontent can
then create another language, being so close to the first one that the
understanding is there and then facilitate or abolish usages that they don't
like for one reason or another.


> That situation leads to some people having
> the privilege of being _better speakers_
> of the conIAL than others because of only
> their being the native speakers of languages
> which share with conIAL the use of features
> that are difficult for the native speakers
> of other languages.

To a certain extent this rhymes with what I have experienced in Interlingua.
But generally it is a give-and-take situation. Often I can ask how an Italian
or Brazilian Interlingua-speaker would express this or that, and one can get a
picture of the correct usage.

It is always a temptation for a user of an auxiliary language to introduce
things that are natural and logic in their own language but might pose
difficulties for users of other languages, and this calls for a readiness to
listen to the other users...

> > > Interlingua easy to understand?! For whom?
> >
> >For thouse who already have learnt the Western vocabulary one way or the
> >other.
>
> You don't seem to be aware of how many idiomatic
> expressions are present in Interlingua that
> are unknown for the non-Westerners who have
> only learned English. Even I myself, a native
> speaker of Spanish, have frequently seen you
> using idiomatic expressions in Interlingua that
> I find weird and idiosyncratically pertaining
> to a certain language(s) and that would have
> being impossible for me to decipher if I hadn't
> already seen them used in some Romance language
> such as Italian, French or Portuguese and thus
> weren't already aware of what they mean.

The more interesting this is that I don't speak any of these languages over a
certain school or tourists' level! If I were a native speaker of Spanish I
would understand this, but I am not.

It is also very possible that I will use expressions which seam idiosyncratic
to you as a native speaker of Spanish. There is not much I can do about that.
What you can do is of course ask, if you don't know what I mean. Considering
the fact that people sometimes have difficulties in understanding what they
write in their national languages, it is not such a big suprize that they don't
understand what a user from another language group might write in
aforementioned languages.

> (...)
>
> About the plausibility of introducing changes
> to a language that is already in use by a large
> community, see above, or just think of your own
> unsuccessfulness in replacing "io" with "ego"
> in Interlingua.

To put it mildly: "Against unwillingness to grasp the obvious, even the Gods
fight unsuccessfully!" :-)

Kjell R

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November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
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August 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
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June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
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March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
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August 2002, Week 3
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August 2002, Week 1
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June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
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February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
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October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
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July 1997, Week 2
July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
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June 1997, Week 1
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May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
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April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
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March 1997, Week 3
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March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1

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