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AUXLANG  March 2003, Week 3

AUXLANG March 2003, Week 3

Subject:

Re: The need for an alternative

From:

Kjell Rehnstrom <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:08:36 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (359 lines)

Javier BF wrote:

> (Deleted text)
> >It was not more strange than to look quite normal to me a couple of miles
> >north
> >of Warsaw when I learned Esperanto. The objection to suffixes expressing
> >feminine is a rather new one, as I understand.
>
> Yes, political correctness is a rather new
> thing, but it is already in the picture of
> today's world.

Any language can handle this, if there is a need for it. There are many
languages (Finnish and Persian to mention but a few) where the third person
pronoun is gender neutral.

I can even imagin a situation where it was seen as a sign of progress that
special feminine forms are used in a language.

> (...)
>
> Then I repeat: forget about Interlingua,
> which certainly is not going to give you
> good grades and money, and devote your time
> to English, French or Spanish instead.

If Interlingua were a non-Euroclone perhaps the consil were worthy of
following. As for French and Spanish I have learnt so much that I generally
need. Unfortunately I will not be able to use them even as freely as I can use
English (and it could certainly be better, I know that!) As I said: Interlingua
is my means for active communication with speakers of Spanish and French (which
I understand passively).

> (...)
>
> Well, in Spain movies have always been dubbed
> and people hardly listen to English here
> beyond some pop and rock songs.

Do you think this is changing? I have the impression that people Spaniards that
I meet here are becomming still better at English with every year. I am
especially thinking about the pronunciation. Perhaps the music plays an
important role here.

> That's
> a reason why Spaniards usually speak very
> poor English. We're not as suffused with
> English here as you are there in Sweden
> and English is not so important a part
> of our lives as it is of yours.

You belong in a very big language community. If I fly just 1 hour from here to
Peterburg I will be in a world, perhaps similar to the Spanish one, where
English is not what I can use in the street as well as here. Even the script is
different.

> In fact,
> if I travelled to a village in Sweden
> and spoke to the people in English, I
> think I'd have a good chance of being
> understood, while if you travelled to a
> village in Spain and spoke to the people
> in English you can be almost 100% sure
> that they won't understand a word (well,
> if you're lucky, maybe you'll find someone
> who does know what "Hello" means). And even
> in the big cities here you'll have trouble
> finding someone who really can speak English
> beyond some cliched basic words and
> phrases.

Then perhaps Interlingua might come in handy!

> (...)
> >
> >Yeah! So why then invent an auxiliary language that is as far from that
> >Lingua
> >Franca as possible? Have you learnt Chinese or Arabic? Pray tell me about
> >it!
>
> I have learnt some Chinese and Arabic, but
> I'm not fluent yet. But even that incomplete
> learning of those languages has made me
> become aware of the real diversity of the
> world's languages and cultures MUCH MORE
> than what did the learning of languages
> closely related to my mother tongue and
> that were part of the same Western cultural
> background that I was already acquainted with.
> As Ricardo Pinto put it: "It was he who
> showed me that, bilingual as I was [in Spanish
> and English], in the world of languages, I
> saw in black and white. He revealed to me
> the rainbow that is human languages."

Note then that for me, who have none of these great languages, English and
Spanish as my native language, I will have to make a special effort to learn
them and in addition Chinese and / or Arabic. The advantage might be that a
Swede is accostumed to learn foreign languages and have got the technique,
while perhaps a monoglot Spaniard (not you then) is in another sence less well
off.

There is no denying that belonging to a small nation can have its advantages. I
have often the impression that the most international people in my part of the
world are the Icelanders. They often speak several European and other languages
well. I have met many who speak some kind of Scandinavian Interlingua (Danish
words with Swedish pronunciation, very easy to understand!)


> (...) Yes, in your world, that is just a tiny portion
> of the world.

But it is the one I have had to deal with.


> >
> >By arguing as you do, you appear to have a hidden agenda for me which makes
> >me
> >very curious.
>
> I don't have any "hidden agenda". It's simply
> that I'm not thinking just about here, now and
> myself, but about the fact that the world of
> twenty or fifty years from now, that is the
> world that may be ready to adopt an auxlang
> designed today, is certainly not going to look
> as it looks to me nowadays, and in that world
> the importance of English and Western culture
> at a global scale is going to have diminished
> very noticeably.

I don't think so! A possible shift might be that Spanish will gain more ground
in comparison to French and even English, but I think English will be stronger
than it is now.

What might change that prognosis is if there is a war that some other side will
winn, but even not then. Compare the old Roman empire. The Goths plundered
Rome, but they had already embraced Christianity, and the Vandals who ruled
over Andalucia very soon learnt the language of their oppressed and disappeared
into the common genome.

The mongols learnt Chinese very soon as they had become emperrors in Beijing.

> Even the British teachers
> of English themselves are already aware that
> English doesn't have a very brilliant future
> as the only global lingua franca beyond the
> immediate decades and that in the world of
> 2050 or 2070, the world that my children and
> grandchildren will be living in, a language
> such as Chinese may have already taken the
> relay from English as the language of the
> leading world power.

We will see whan this is beginning to happen. More Chinese litterature will be
tranalsated. Suddenly it will be a merite to know Chinese and lots of exchange
students will go to China. It may well be that this process is already
beginning. There is though more of mutuality in this. The Chinese are now
learning English, they are travelling to the US as exchange students. There is
a trickle of Europeans going to China and learning the language. It is very
possible that there will be a shift into Chinese. We'll see.

A spread of English might also occur if you get a very conservative government
in the US forcing lots of young Americans to flee to the EU! Such things have
happened before in history!


> In 1900 the leading powers were France and
> Britain; look where they are now compared
> with the USA that was only a marginal country
> in 1900. In the same way, the USA are not
> going to remain as the leading power forever
> and there are big chances that their dominance
> will not last beyond 2020 or 2030. In fact,
> I do consider that the heyday of American
> dominance was the 1990s and that the beginning
> of the decline of the American empire has
> already started. G.W. Bush thought the rest
> of the world would servilely kneel at his
> plans for attacking Iraq and redesigning the
> political and economic map of the Middle East
> for the benefit of the American and Israeli
> interests, but there you have the answer: the
> majority of the rest of the world has decided
> not to go on kneeling before an American emperor
> that is as mad as the Roman emperor Neron and
> is dangerously leading the world to the brink
> of WW3 in his attempt to impose an unacceptable
> Pax Americana.

There was an article in Metro where some professor from Royal Superial School
of Technology stated that this war against Iraq is about oil. According to him
the sole productive oilfields in say 2020 will be those in the Middle East and
that's why we have this war, which I think is an item in a very farsighted
plan. Others have stated that water will be a much more tantalizing problem
than oil in the future. I am satisfied to live in a country where there is
relatively much water.

(...)

> Fifty years ago it was the Spaniards who
> were fleeing away from the misery and cruelty
> of a dictatorial regime. Nowadays it is Spain
> who is receiving emigrants fleeing away from
> the misery and dictatorship that they're
> suffering today in their countries. That
> situation in their countries is not going to
> last forever, as neither the misery and
> dictatorship in our country lasted forever,
> and nowadays Spain is a well established
> democracy that ranks among the fifteen richest
> countries in the world. There are already
> clear signals that the situation is changing
> in China, and the giant dragon will sooner
> or later awake from its communist nightmare
> to become a leading political, economic and
> cultural power in the decades to come.

Sooner or later this will happen, of course.

> French is no longer what it used to be before WW2
> because the French dominance over the world expired
> long ago and French appears ever more like a past
> glory. As for German, I can't tell about Sweden,
> but here in Spain the interest on German is steadily
> increasing and many companies now require their
> future employees to master not only English but
> also German, because Germany is among the leading
> countries in technology and is the leading
> economic power within the EU.

Very probable. Unfortunately public opinion hasn't understood that in Sweden
yet. German is declining as well. It is a saddening fact, I think, as German is
a very nice language.

> >No, I don't realize that. When the Normands came to England they changed
> >the
> >language substantially, as had the Danes done before them.
> >
> >The Bulgars did, if I recall the facts correctly, also have a significant
> >influence of the people that they conquered, becoming Slavic speakers
> >themselves.
>
> But that kind of linguistic change takes
> place very slowly and gradually and not
> as a result of a conscious attempt to
> reform the language.

I'd say that such change can occur very rapidly! Historically speaking 100
years is a short period of time.

(...)

> >This is still harder with a national language, and those who are discontent
> >can
> >then create another language, being so close to the first one that the
> >understanding is there and then facilitate or abolish usages that they
> >don't
> >like for one reason or another.

Prescriptive changes in national languages have occurred in history. But
generally change occurs because the speakers fail to understand the system that
operates the language.

> And we end up with the current myriad of
> reformed Esperantos.

This is perhaps one of the perils with the Net. Everyone can be his own beacon
of language reform. It strikes me that this is very interesting.

We know that frequent words are generally irregular while rare words are
generally very regular, as people keep forgetting older systems that governed
them. Large immigrant populations will change a language.

Could it be that some of the obstacles in the Internet had a similar effect on
Esperanto? The speakers could not - without big problems - use the typical
Esperanto letters. That gave rise to quite a few systems. Not only the h and x
methods, nota bene!

> > > You don't seem to be aware of how many idiomatic
> > > expressions are present in Interlingua that
> > > are unknown for the non-Westerners who have
> > > only learned English. Even I myself, a native
> > > speaker of Spanish, have frequently seen you
> > > using idiomatic expressions in Interlingua that
> > > I find weird and idiosyncratically pertaining
> > > to a certain language(s) and that would have
> > > being impossible for me to decipher if I hadn't
> > > already seen them used in some Romance language
> > > such as Italian, French or Portuguese and thus
> > > weren't already aware of what they mean.

I think that this is a good sign, supposing how genuinely bad I am at Romance
languages. This is a problem in whatever auxiliar language you express
yourself. Onconsciously you will use metaphores from languages that you know,
or even descard some possible metaphores, if you think that they only occur in
you own language.

> My point was that Interlingua has accepted idioms
> present in some of the source languages, even though
> those idioms are undecipherable for the speakers of
> other of the source languages (let alone for the
> speakers of non-source languages). E.g. I can
> understand "ben que" only because Spanish has a
> similar idiom "bien que", but in English there
> is nothing the like of "well that" to mean
> "although".

I cannot explain how I learnt it. There are dictionaries. And a lot of things
you understand from context and assimilate.

> OTOH, I got lost when in Interlingua
> you said "durante que", because in Spanish we
> have the word "durante" but we don't use it in
> that idiom, which we render as "mientras que".

Not much to get lost about! I remember vividly when I saw "locotenente" in a
text and I couldn't at first decipher it. Even though we have it in Swedish as
a loan from French (löjtnant)!


> I couldn't make any sense of what you meant by
> "durante que" until I realized it to be the
> equivalent to our "mientras que" from context
> and aided by the facts that "durante" and
> "mientras" may be synonym in certain contexts
> in Spanish (though definitely not as for that
> idiom) and that both translate as "while" in
> English and "while" is what English uses
> in place of our "mientras que". Also, when
> you said that "habeva viagiate in Minnesota",
> I only knew that it means what in Spanish we
> mean by "había viajado a Minnesota" (had
> travelled to Minnesota) instead of what we
> mean by "había viajado en Minnesota" (had
> travelled in Minnesota)--that is, that s/he
> had travelled from the outside into Minnesota
> instead of that s/he had travelled within the
> limits of Minnesota-- because I was already
> aware of that idiomatic usage of "in" for the
> illative that I had found in Latin and Italian
> but that is absent in Spanish.

Thank you for the last information! A put great value in such feedback. It is
interesting to know what people who have not studied interlingua understand or
don't understand. It is not always that the lack of understanding in a text is
due to defficiencies in the language, it can also come from sloppy writing by
the author.

I often feel that I am much more careful writing in Swedish than even en
English, let alone Interlingua! I interpret that as a fact that you are more
sensitive to your own language and don't notice the warning signs in languages
that you don't master on the same level as your native langauge.

But when writing in Interlingua, I try as much as possible to think about the
person who will read my message...

Kjell R

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May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
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March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
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September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
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July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
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June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
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February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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September 2002, Week 2
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June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
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August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
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July 1998, Week 3
July 1998, Week 2
July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
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May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
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April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
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March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 3
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February 1997, Week 1

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