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AUXLANG  September 2003, Week 4

AUXLANG September 2003, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Introduction to Kerla

From:

Rob Haden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:59:54 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (155 lines)

Hello Michael,

Thanks for your reply.  You've brought up some good points, and I will
address them below.

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:41:50 +0200, Michael Farris <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I'm going into argumentative linguist mode here, so if any of my comments
>seem snippy, don't take it personally.

I certainly won't :)

>> Phonology - Consonants:
>
>Is this fonemic or fonetic? It looks like a fonemic chart

I would say that it's phonemic.

>four questions:
>
>1. Why do you have the velars listed to the left of the palatals? It's
>standard practice to list palatals to the left of velars. Now there might
be
>good reasons for reversing the order in the case of a specific language, is
>that the case here?

Good point.  I was not aware that that was standard practice.  However,
thinking about it now, it makes sense to list the palatals before the
velars, since the former are in front of the latter, in terms of
articulation.  I will amend the phonemic chart accordingly.

>2. Is there any reason you list the voiced/voiceless pairs together? If
they
>contrast, the most common approach is to list on under the other (usually
>voiced stops underneath the voiceless ones)

Again, I was not aware that this was the common approach.  I will amend the
chart accordingly.

>3. Does ? contrast with zero? (that is, does it the presence of a glottal
>stop contrast with its absence? If not, then you don't need it on this
chart
>(some linguists might want it there anyway, but I'm in favor of making
>things as spare as possible.

No, there is no contrast between ? and zero.  It's been my experience that
words that are written beginning with a vowel are actually begun with a
glottal stop.  However, this may not be the case for many people in other
parts of the world.  In any case, I will remove it from the chart.

>4. Does ng contrast with n ? If ng (let's use /N/ for ng here) only appears
>before k or g (and an alveo-dental consonant can't appear in that position)
>then there's no reason to list it on this chart. Some languages do in fact
>contrast /nk/ and /Nk/ but it's not very common.

No, it does not.  The sound N only occurs when a nasal is pronounced
homorganically next to a velar stop.  Since it is therefore not really a
phoneme, I will remove it from the chart.

>> Phonology - Vowels:
>>
>>           Front     Central     Back
>>
>> High        i                     u
>>
>> Middle      e                     o
>>
>> Low                    a
>>
>> Diphthongs: ai, au, eu, ia, iu, io, oi, ui
>
>hmmm  I'm not sure what you're doing here. Are these vowel clusters or
>vowels plus glides? I didn't notice any /y/ or /w/ in your chart so I'll
>assume they're vowel clusters are these the only clusters permitted? What
>about eo or ea? Given the overall pattern, I'd expect to see ua and ue here
>as well, are they possible combinations?

The diphthongs are vowel clusters.  Accentuation is always on the first
vowel of the pair.  I might add eo, ea, ua, and ue, but right now they are
not permitted.

>followed by sV ??? what is sV??? Do you mean something like  /gapsa/ or
>/detsi/ or am I missing something?

Yes, I mean exactly something like /gapsa/ or /detsi/.

>I have a suspicion that all this could be phrased more naturally but I'll
>let it go for now.

Probably.  However, that was the most concise way that I could think of to
phrase it.

>> Root/Primitive Design Notes:
>>
>> - Every root/primitive will denote a concept
>>
>> - Every root/primitive will have a basic form denoting either a predicate
>> or an argument
>>
>> - All perceivable objects/entities will be basic arguments
>>
>> - All perceivable actions/activities will be basic predicates
>
>Perceivable by who?

By human beings.  I wrote "perceivable" because, for example, a ghost is
not a physical object, but some people perceive them (whether they actually
exist or not is, I think, a rather moot point).

>TRust me on this, making the basic predicates intransitive when at all
>possible will make your life easier.

Why is that?

>Why plural radical? The basic singular/plural division so common in Europe
>is really boring. Here are some possible alternatives.
>
>all roots are number neutral, to specify specific numbers or amounts
>separate modifiers may be added (my suggestion)
>
>minimal membership/expanded membership/contracted membership  - this is
hard
>to explain quickly, the basic idea is that the root indicates some specific
>amount (minimal membership), which can be added to (expanded) or lessened
>(contracted)
>so that (using gik for 'ear')
>
>minimal membership - gik (a pair of ears)
>contracted membership fe gik (a single ear)
>expanded membership pu gik (more than a single pair of ears)
>
>compact - singular or more than one but acting together
>diffused - more than one acting separately
>
>Lot's of other possibilities as well.

I think we are using different devices for the same things.  Where you
would use preposed modifiers to indicate singleness and plurality, I would
use a number ("one") for the former and a plural suffix (-i) for the
latter.  However, keep in mind that when using a number to modify an
argument, the argument does not inflect for plural (i.e. "three dog"
instead of "three dogs").

Almost every natural language has a method of expressing plural, definite
and/or indefinite.  It seems logical to me to have a method for it in
Kerla.  It also makes sense to me to use the shortest morphemes for the
most basic grammatical functions - i.e., -i for plural and -n for
genitive.  Of course, one could argue that plural number and genitive case
should not be considered basic grammatical functions, but that's what makes
language fun :)

I'm interested in hearing more from you.

- Rob

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