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CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2003, Week 5

CONLANG September 2003, Week 5

Subject:

Re: A Survey

From:

Costentin Cornomorus <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:45:43 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (164 lines)

--- Rob Haden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I'm curious to see everyone's answers to the
> following questions:
>
> 1. Does your language(s) distinguish between
> active ("X breaks Y"), middle
> ("X breaks (apart)"), and passive ("X is broken
> (by Y)")?

Kerno distinguished active, impersonal and
passive-reflexive. Talarian distinguishes between
active and middle. I think it doesn't have a
passive as we'd understand it. (Makes for some
interesting translational gymnastics!)

> 2. If the answer to #1 was "yes," what
> method(s) does your language(s) use
> to make some/all of the above distinctions?

Kerno:

It's a Romance language that wears a kilt, so in
essence, it does things in a Romance fashion. The
active verb looks like a conventional active verb
in French or Spanish. Its Celtic roots show in
the retention of the -r passive; though one could
argue (and I think successfully) that the -r
passive is simply a remnant of the
Latin-as-a-second-language current in early
Dűnein.

I'll use the soup examples as well:

active
------

couisens il Roberts l' ystoufe
cooks-ACT the Robert the soup

(Literally, Robert heats soup on the stove. Coser
means more to cook from scratch. I'm assuming
Robert has opened a tin of Paneacoua's Chicken
Soup.)

impersonal
----------

Turns out to be a kind of necessative.

couiseneor l' ystoufs!
must.cook-PASS the soup

(This could mean "you must try this recipe!" or
"I'm famished and this tin of Paneacoua's is
bŔgging me to open it up!")

passive
-------

ast couisenoes l' ystoufs per lŕ Roberte.
is cooked the soup by the Robert

The typical esser + past participle that makes up
the modern passive in Kerno.

reflexive
---------

Works out to be like the middle.

couisens-si mezisif l' ystoufs.
cooks-self own.self the soup

A certain kind of verb (like laouar-si (wash),
gouestir-si (dress), etc.) are actual reflexives.
Others tend to be understood as middle.

Talarian:

active
------

(durative)
hawehhati Rupartas-co sawecr˘s-to-he
cooks-HAB Robert-FOCUS soup-TOPIC-and

(punctual)
hawehhti Rupartas-co sawecr˘s-to-he
is.cooking ...

Talarian finds the distinction of ACTIVE v.
STATIVE to be of fundamental importance. Beyond
that, Durative v. Punctual is important.

middle
------

hawehhatar sawecr˘s-co-he
cook-MID soup-FOCUS-and

Note that once the sawecr˘s is cooked, it becomes
sawect˘s. Both are verbal nouns, one gives the
idea of "soup in the act of cooking", and thus
means "raw soup" or "uncooked soup"; the other
gives the idea of "cooked soup". The example noun
in the grammar is hasr˘s/hast˘s, both meaning
"burning thing". Hasr˘s, in the act of burning,
is "fire"; hast˘s, having been burnt, is "ember".

> 3. What method(s) does your language(s) use to
> distinguish between basic
> nouns and verbs of the same root (i.e. "a hit"
> vs. "he hits")?

Kerno:

Nouns are declined, with nominal morphology and
stem forms. Verbs are conjugated with verbal
morphology.

Talarian:

You mean it's possible to distinguish nouns from
verbs? How strange is that! :)

There are root extensions that tend to signify
"noun" or "verb"; but by in large, roots are
indistinguishable. The fact that there are also
so many kinds of verbal nouns (soup, above, is in
fact a verbal noun) clouds the distinction
between a noun (a word that names a thing or
quality) and a verb (a word that names an
action). It boils down to essential (or
transcendental?) Talarian grammar: there are
Particles which determine the functions of all
other words; and then there are all the other
words. Nouns and verbs are simply two sides of
the same tarxam.

Padraic.


=====
- Per y celles ke 'n al noef chluys feronte y vruxt la mezer; a Ddon et Dde lor gouertus, renothe y nusteor pheticiŔn

- A Ddon ten mezer!

--

Ill Bethisad --
<http://www.geocities.com/elemtilas/ill_bethisad>


Come visit The World! --
<http://www.geocities.com/hawessos/>







.

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