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AUXLANG  January 2004, Week 4

AUXLANG January 2004, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Infinitives in Interlingua (and Esperanto)

From:

Kjell Rehnstrom <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:55:12 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (229 lines)

Thomas Alexander wrote:

>There is room for confusion when it comes to
>infinitives in Interlingua (an Esperanto) - at the
>very least this is a problem for English speakers.
>See Paul O Bartlett's messages (January 2004) in
>AUXLANG.  Also, in my translation of the Flying
>Octopus flim, I had used the expression "la celo de
>krei" (the goal of creating) which someone else
>insisted should be "la celo krei."
>
Ego haberea scribite "La celo de kreado". In mi opinion le problema con
le infinitivos, non solo in esperanto o interlingua, ma anque in svedese
e anglese (!) veni de lor capacitate de esser substantivos.

Ci ego vole defiar vostre sentos lingual un poco. Cinsidera:
Without understanding this you cannot make a correct judgement.
Es pro me un altere cosa que
Not understanding this.... (isto sona tanto incorrecte, pote on vermente
scriber assi?!)

In et interlingua et esperanto ego preferea le proposition ante le
negation, isto es:
Sen komprenado de tio...
Sen kompreni tion...?
Sin comprender isto....
Con "non" mi senso lingual postula un participio (forsan gerundio si on
es strictissime?)
Non comprendente isto on non...

Forsan mi costumes svedese me duce al impression que on pote scriber:
Non comprender isto significa que on es ignorante.
Ne kompreni tion montras ke oni estas nescianto.
Not to understand this shows....?

>Infinitives are discussed in sections 82-89 in the
>Gode-Blair grammar.
>
>Infinitives sometimes corespond to "to +verb" in
>English, and sometimes to "verb-ing" in English. This
>rule of thumb which I use sometimes breaks down.
>
>  Consider:
>
>     I tried to open it
>        (and I did not succeed in opening it.)
>
>     I tried opening it
>        (and although it opened, nothing came out.)
>
>How do you express this differece in Esperanto and
>Interlingua?
>
Le question es: An on lo pote? Es il possibile supponer que tote le
audientia de interlingua o esperanto ha iste referentia lingual? Forsan
on debe esser multo plus "inepte", "super-clar", viste que on forsan se
torna a un multo heterogene audientia?

>Thinking of... In English, "thinking of" doing
>something means you are considering doing it and
> you might do it.  According to the Pimsleur language
>course for Italian, "penso di" plus an infinitive
>means "I think I'll" - that is, you've already
>decided.  In s83 of the Gode Blair grammar, there's
>"nos pensa ir al theatro" - we're thinking of going
>to the theater.  They say there is no "de" in "nos
>pensa ir" because of a rule for transitive verbs.
>(c.f. "nos plana ir al theatro."  It's difficult for
>me to accept that this is not a mistake in the
>Gode-Blair grammar because "pensar" is not transitive
>- or if it is, it's not transitive in the same way
> "planar" is.
>
Pensar postula un objecto, sia isto "lo" (Ego lo pensa) o un
subproposition: (Ego pensa que le hiberno es sever in Svedia justo ora.
Si ego lo pensa. Ego pensa ir al centro hodie. Si, ego lo pensa). Vader
que es clarmente intransitive non permitte un objecto: Ego lo vade. Hmm,
ma on pote dicer "Ego vade iste distantia cata die" (!)

O assi. In iste caso "pensa" significa "plana" "intende". Tu ha solo un
"to" in anglese, ego suppone, in tal caso tu non besonia un de ante le
infinitivo.

> You can plan a trip, but you usually
>don't think things, you think ABOUT things.
>
Ma tu pote dicer "Ego lo non pensa". "Ego pensa que ego es un humano."

>(...)
>
>I ran into trouble with "un modello elegante a sequer
>sempre" (an elegant model to follow always).  I
>couldn't justify this use by any of the examples in
>Gode-Blair, but I suspect it's necessary to have the
>preposition.  In Esperanto I'd say "eleganta modelo
>por sekvi cxiam" - so with a preposition.  Can
>anybody shed some light on this?
>
Ego senti que "a sequer" es necessari, ben que ego in svedese usarea un
equivalente del anglese "to follow" in iste possition. Il ha un certe
finalitate ibi. Il ha un exemplo in Gode Blair del typo: Il es facile
rider con le ridentes e plorar con le plorantes" o alque simile, ma in
ille caso in non, secundo me, ha un finalitate.

>Another example:
>"... medios audiovisual PRO attraher le interesse de
>plus de personas." - this "pro" seems like it could
>fit in the "in order to" rule of thumb: audiovisual
>media in order to attract (or 'for attracting')...
>Is this the right way to look at this one?
>
Si, ego lo crede.

>I assume the expression "a expectar" means "to be
>expected" and I just took it as an idiomatic
>expression.  This is in contrast to "a revider"
>which I took as a nominalisation (s87 in Gode-Blair.)
>
On poterea imaginar *a revidimento (!) Ma le francese e forsan altere
linguas ha infinitivos ibi, que no? Jacques?

>Another tricky one for me was "le creation de un ver
>boteca in linea DE VENDER libros de interlingua."
>Why "de" and not "pro"?
>
Ego ha explicate isto assi (a me ipse:)
Le de junge le elementos. "...in linea pro vender libros" es anque
correcto o un minus forte modalitate "in linea a vender libros".
Personalmente ego usarea "a" o plus forte "pro". (Le scopo es vender
libros).

>"[Alcuno] incoragiava A FACER plus de incontros..."
>According to Gode-Blair, "The preposition a is used
>when the infinitive seems to represent a goal either
>after an adjective or a verbal construction."  I
>suppose this means that this alcuno is encouraging
>them TOWARDS the goal of making more meetings. Right?
>
>"Tempore pro reposar."
>This makes sense to me as "time for resting" which is
>like "time for rest" -- again, s87.
>
>"Evolution pro professionalisar labor con interlingua"
>This time "pro" seems to fit the "in order to"
>pattern, However...
>
>... "debe reportar regularmente de lor activitates
>PRO ASSECURAR un coordination melior."
>This, apparently is an "in order to" (in order to
>assure a better coordination) and thus is correct,
>but then how would you say "must regularly report on
>their activities for assuring better coordination."?
>
Debe regularmente reportar de /super/ re/ lor activitates pro assecurar
un melior coordination.

>That is, the reports are on activities, and the
>activities (not the reports) serve the purpose of
>assuring better coordination.  This is not unlike
>the difference between "trying opening" and "trying
>to open."
>
>"debe esser adjutate IN ESTABLIR se"
>I suppose this would be explained as a nominalization
>- must be helped in the establishing of themselves.
>
>"... textos a leger e photos a vider."
>I totally do not understand why this is not "pro
>leger" and "pro vider."
>
In mi senso le "pro" in iste caso es troppo forte, quasi excessivemente
"final".

>As I was writing these notese, I got up TO LOCK the
>door.  I hesitated whether you'd need a preposition
>for that in Esperanto (mi iros (por) sxlosi la
>pordon."  Even in English, I'm not sure what the
>difference is between"
>
>   - I will now go and lock the door.
>   - I will now go lock the door.
>   - I will now go to lock the door.
>
Svedese es ancora plus complicate, nam tu ha le parola e o simple
infinitivo que ha un equivalente del anglese "to" e illos es pronunciate
equalmente!!! Le problema es le scriptura! Ego comprende "ir a clauder"
como un syntagma, un frase.

>After writing up the above, I got a personal e-mail,
>in wich I found the expression "(illo) sembla DE
>ESSER" which I could not justify in Gode-Blair, but
>considering that the same expression in Italian is
>"sembrare di essere", I can only assume that this is
>"good Interlingua" (in spite of the fact that I would
>say "sxajnas esti" in Esperanto.)  In the same letter,
>however, I found the following:
>
>"Nos te consiliarea DE PENSAR super duo
>possibilitates."
>
Personalmente ego pote imaginar isto e con e sin "de".

>My hunch is that this is wrong, but I'm having a hard
>time coming up with a clear explanation of what would
>be right.  In Esperanto, I'd say "Mi konsilas vin
>pensi" -- with no prepostion -- or "mi konsilas ke vi
>pensu" (see s90 in Gode-Blair.)
>
O forsan "Mi konsilas al vi pensi..."

>Section 88 lists several verbs (plus verbs of "sense
>perception") where the object is also the subject of
>the infinitive.  (e.g. I see him come / Gramamar
>makes me barf).  Although "consiliar" is neither on
>the list nor a "sense" verb, the structure seems
>similar to me, since "te" is the subject of "pensar."
>
>Another thought is that "consiliar" is one of those
>verbs with two objects.  My Italian dictionary seems
>to support this, although it's not clear.
>
>
Si, ego lo crede: On pote consiliar a un persona (facer) un cosa. Ego te
lo consilia.

Amicalmente

Kjell R

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December 2002, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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