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AUXLANG  January 2004, Week 5

AUXLANG January 2004, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Personal Response to "The Main Advantages of Ido"

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 31 Jan 2004 20:07:08 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (155 lines)

Je 01.24 ptm 2004.01.29, Rob HADEN skribis
>OK, I logged into the nearby computer lab since I have a class soon.
>Here's some more of my response:

I didn't answer your first message because I saw little to disagree with,
except, perhaps, on matters of personal taste. (*) Here, too, to a great
extent. Nevertheless ...


>"INFINITIVES in Ido have the ending -ar which is better known than -i
>because it comes from Spanish, Italian, Catalan and Portuguese."
>
>On the global level, -ar is as not well known as -i.

The -AR in Ido was, IMHO, a significant mistake, not because -AR is not as
well-known as -I (for the clientele for whom Ido was originally devised, it
_was_ better known), but because the nature of the ending -R requires the
stress to be put on -AR, thus necessitating an exception to the standard
stress rule that Ido carried over from Esperanto. (Goncalo Neves, having
recovered from his Idist adventure, has also pointed out that this stress
on a grammatical ending tends to give the language even more of a
monotonous sound than the proliferation of -AJ -OJ about which Idists often
complain with respect to Esperanto.)

>"PLURALS have the ending -i, known in Slavic languages and in Romanian and
>Italian. Both endings (-ar and -i) in Ido are already known to many
>millions of people."
>
>Millions of people in Europe, but that's about it.  I have strong
>reservations about deriving a language's grammar and/or vocabulary mainly
>from Romance (let alone European) sources.  However, affixes for such
>things as infinitives and plurals should be as simple as possible.  The use
>of -i for plurals *is* an exercise in simplicity.
>
>"WORDS FOR PEOPLE AND ANIMALS in Ido are nearly all non-specific as regards
>gender (as are many words in English and Russian). When necessary, one adds
>a suffix to indicate sex. The major advantage is that one does not have to
>give the impression that a person or animal is masculine when one in fact
>does not know, or when it can or may be either male or female."
>
>I agree with this.

Personally, I prefer consistency -- if you start out to create an
agglutinative language, agglutinate, and don't simply switch over to an
inflected ending for one particular feature and just as a sop to the
inventor of Adjuvanto.

>"Ido also has a very useful extra pronoun, lu, which does not indicate sex
>and so avoids the necessity to say repeatedly "he or she" or give false
>information by saying for example only "he" in a situation where it could
>also be 'she'."
>
>Many languages don't even distinguish gender in their pronouns (Mandarin
>and Finnish, for example).  Colloquial English has begun to use the 3rd
>plural pronoun "they" for gender-neutrality in the singular.

Esperanto has such a pronoun -- "gxi". Unfortunately, English-speakers feel
uncomfortable using it, which has led to the common use of "tiu" in such a
situation.

>"THE PREFIX MAL- is used too much in Esperanto, so that many frequently
>used words are too long (and too repetetive). The prefix "mal-" is also
>unfortunate because its international meaning is "bad" (for
>example, "malfermas" might mean "shuts badly"). Ido has the more
>international prefix des- (from French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc.), as in
>the words desaprobas, desagreabla, desavantajo. There are also alternatives
>for the more frequently used antonyms:"
>
>I agree with this.  Basic opposites, such as "light" vs. "dark," "pretty"
>vs. "ugly," and of course "good" vs. "bad" are more easily expressed in
>terms of different words.

Here I'd have to disagree. The point of the IAL is to keep the number of
memorization units as small as possible. MAL- helps fulfill this admirably,
and it does not detract from stylistic attractiveness, particularly when
used consistently in the "triple whammy" construct (poor, bad and short --
malricxa, malbona, malalta).

>"DERIVATION of words in Esperanto may be simple but in fact it is idiomatic
>and unclear. For example, "to brush" is brosi using a brush which is broso,
>but "to shoot" is pafi using a gun, pafilo; "to pilot" is piloti
>and "pilot" is piloto, but "to interpret" is interpreti with "interpreter"
>being interpretisto; a person who is seeing is vidanto, but a person who is
>blind is blindulo."
>
>This is certainly a problem, in my opinion.  I would suggest having two
>basic deverbal affixes: one to represent the activity of the verb (nomen
>activitatis), and another to express the result or the thing most commonly
>the object of the verb (nomen actionis).  Of course, an agentive suffix
>(nomina agentis) et al. are also necessary.

The problem is that there really isn't a problem -- you just have to know
what the basic root means, not what its national-language equivalent is.
For instance "bros'" is in itself "an object consisting of a number of
bristles and used to smooth surfaces" or something like that; hence "broso"
= a brush, "brosi" = to utilize a brush for what it is intended. On the
other hand, "paf'" describes an action, and hence "pafi" = to shoot, "pafo"
= the act of firing a shot, "pafilo" = a tool for carrying out that act;
"pilot'" is a specific person with a specific job, so "piloti" is to carry
out that job; "interpret'" is itself an action, so the person who
vocationally or avocationally carries out that action is an
"interpretisto". (Note: if James doesn't like "piloto/piloti", he can
always use "sxipstiri/sxipstiristo" .)

Note also that "vid'" describes an action, but "blind'" describes a state
or quality. A person who is carrying out that action is an -ANT-o (present
participle); a person who is in that state or has that quality is an -UL-o.
One could also say "vidulo" or even "blindanto", but they would mean quite
different things from "vidanto" and "blindulo" respectively.

None of these usages is idiomatic or unclear _as long as you understand
what the basic root means_, much as you would in your own language. One
might argue, at a deeper level, that there was a certain amount of
arbitrariness in choosing roots (why, for instance, did Zamenhof make
"komb'" an action but "bros'" an object?), but I have yet to see a planned
language in which there is no arbitrariness in defining words. (Myself, I
tend to prefer action-roots to object-roots, since the structure of the
language seems to favor the former over the latter. Frankly, I suspect that
two hundred years from now the dictionaries will tell us that "bros'" means
"the action of smoothing something down using an object covered with
bristles", and that the tool for this is called a "brosilo" -- I've already
seen the occasional hint that "telefon'" is moving in that direction, and
the history of the development of the word for "computer" indicates that
the concept is not an unpopular one.)

>"WITH THE INFINITIVE in Ido one more logically uses adjectives, not
>adverbs, because the infinitive is a verb-form with the character of a noun
>(8). Use of adverbs here is a Slavic idiom, or misunderstanding (9). For
>the same reason, one can in Ido freely and without hesitation use a
>preposition before an infinitive; for example sen vidar, ante parolar."
>
>I agree with this.

Actually, the infinitive, whatever its meaning, is a verb _form_, and
consequently in Esperanto the adverb is used with it (as it is not just in
the Slavic languages but in English -- "to boldly go", not "to bold go").

You can also use prepositions with infinitives in Esperanto, and many
people do it regularly, though national-language habits tend to prevail in
many cases (I had to teach myself to say "dankon pro telefoni").

---

(*) You do describe 'x' as used for "ks" or "gz" in Ido as a "digraph".
Actually, a digraph is a pair of characters used to describe a single
sound, not the other way around. I'm not sure what the technical term for
'x' here would be -- a "diphone", perhaps? Mike Farris?


-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/don/don.html
Opinions (in English): http://www.harlows.org/don/opinions/
Esperanto (in English): http://www.harlows.org/don/esperanto/
Literaturo (Esperante): http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/Literaturo

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