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AUXLANG  February 2004, Week 1

AUXLANG February 2004, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Infinitives in Interlingua (and Esperanto)

From:

Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 3 Feb 2004 04:21:00 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (169 lines)

In his reply on Tue Jan 27, 2004, Kjell wrote:

[the goal of creating - la celo (de?) krei]
> Ego haberea scribite "La celo de kreado".

The original was "the goal of creating the world's
first piloted balloon structure."  With your wording,
it would come out as:

- la celo DE kreado DE la unua lateksa ...

Alternatively:
- la celo (de) krei la unuan lateksan...

With an object, the use of the infinitive seems a bit
smoother.

> In mi opinion le problema con le infinitivos, non
> solo in esperanto o interlingua, ma anque in svedese
> e anglese (!) veni de lor capacitate de esser
> substantivos.

I'm not sure about that.  That's the one part of the
Gode-Blair grammar that I think I have a handle on.
When the infinitive can be construed as a substantive,
then do this that and so.


> Ci ego vole defiar vostre sentos lingual un poco.
> Cinsidera:
>
>         Without understanding this
>         you cannot make a correct judgement.
>
> Es pro me un altere cosa que
>
>         Not understanding this....
>         (isto sona tanto incorrecte,
>         pote on vermente scriber assi?!)

For what it's worth, these are different things to me
too.  The first one is sort of an if-then thing.  It
leaves open the question of whether the "you" actually
understands the "this."  "Listen well, because if you
don't understand, you can't make a correct judgement."

In the second, it's assumed that the subject of the
next phrase doesn't understand.  "Since you don't
understand this, you cannot make a correct jugement,
so don't try."

For the first:
- Sen kompreni tion...
- sen ke vi komprenu tion...
- sen kompreno de tio...

For the second:
- ne komprenante tion...
- cxar vi ne komprenas tion...


Thomas wrote / Kjell replied:
> > Consider:
> >
> > I tried to open it
> > (and I did not succeed in opening it.)
> >
> > I tried opening it
> > (and although it opened, nothing came out.)
> >
> > How do you express this differece in Esperanto
> > and Interlingua?
>
> Le question es: An on lo pote? Es il possibile
> supponer que tote le audientia de interlingua
> o esperanto ha iste referentia lingual?

I think these are two different things.  On one hand,
there's the  question of clarity & style for audiences
who might not have fully learned the language in
question.   On the other hand,  there's the  question
of what it actually means to those who have.


> Forsan on debe esser multo plus "inepte",
> "super-clar", viste que on forsan se
> torna a un multo heterogene audientia?

This is the "first hand."  Even so, I don't know the
answer.  Maybe "malfermado ne solvis la problemon"
& "mi provis sen sukceso malfermi gxin.

> Pensar postula un objecto, sia isto "lo" (Ego lo
> pensa) o un subproposition: (Ego pensa que le
> hiberno es sever in Svedia justo ora.

Although I am aware that words can be transitive (or
reflexive) in one language and intransitive in
another, I will go so far as to say that it's too
much to say that thinking requires an object.
Thinking does not require an object any more (or
less) than than talking does - yet it's difficult to
imagine a sentence like "Io parla ir a theatro."

> Vader que es clarmente intransitive non permitte
> un objecto: Ego lo vade. Hmm, ma on pote dicer
> "Ego vade iste distantia cata die" (!)


In this case, the "iste distantia" not so much an
object, but an accusative of measure.  There's no
logical reason, though, that one couldn't define a
verb of motion which had as the object the location
where the motion was done - such as "walking the
road" or "running the stairs."

> O assi. In iste caso "pensa" significa "plana"
> "intende". Tu ha solo un "to" in anglese, ego
> suppone, in tal caso tu non besonia un de ante
> le infinitivo.

But "plana" is a different word.  You can't use
"Io plana vader" as a model for "io pensa ir" any
more than you can use "I plan to go" as a
justification for *"I think to go".

> Ma tu pote dicer "Ego lo non pensa".

That seems odd.  Could you put a noun in place of
"lo" like  "Ego non pensa un banana" or similar?  If
you can't put a noun there, how can you say it's
transitive?


> >... "debe reportar regularmente de lor activitates
> > PRO ASSECURAR un coordination melior."
> > This, apparently is an "in order to" (in order to
> > assure a better coordination) and thus is correct,
> > but then how would you say "must regularly report
> > on their activities for assuring better
> > coordination."?
>
> Debe regularmente reportar de /super/ re/
> lor activitates pro assecurar un melior
> coordination.

But that's the same phrase as the one from Panorama
which I took to mean "must regularly report on their
activities in order to assure a better coordination."
The only difference is that you said "regularmente
reportar" instead of "reportar regularmente."

> > "Nos te consiliarea DE PENSAR super duo
> > possibilitates."
>
> Personalmente ego pote imaginar isto
> e con e sin "de".

So, which is right?

Amike,
Tomaso


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January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 3
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December 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
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November 2001, Week 1
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 1
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November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 3
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April 1998, Week 1
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