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AUXLANG  February 2004, Week 1

AUXLANG February 2004, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Personal Response to "The Main Advantages of Ido"

From:

Rob Haden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:39:41 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (180 lines)

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 20:07:08 -0800, Donald J. HARLOW
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I didn't answer your first message because I saw little to disagree with,
>except, perhaps, on matters of personal taste. (*) Here, too, to a great
>extent. Nevertheless ...

Si benestas ti, mi iras a providi mea responso en dua linguoi, prime en
mia "personala dialekto" de Ido/Esperanto (pro havas traitoi de amba) e
sekunde en Angla.  Do ti/vi povos selekti uno ke estus plu komfortebla por
ti a lekti.

If it's OK with you, I'm going to provide my response in two languages,
first in my "personal dialect" of Ido/Esperanto (because it has traits of
both) and secondly in English.  That way, you (all) can select which one
you're more comfortable with reading.

>The -AR in Ido was, IMHO, a significant mistake, not because -AR is not as
>well-known as -I (for the clientele for whom Ido was originally devised, it
>_was_ better known), but because the nature of the ending -R requires the
>stress to be put on -AR, thus necessitating an exception to the standard
>stress rule that Ido carried over from Esperanto. (Goncalo Neves, having
>recovered from his Idist adventure, has also pointed out that this stress
>on a grammatical ending tends to give the language even more of a
>monotonous sound than the proliferation of -AJ -OJ about which Idists often
>complain with respect to Esperanto.)

Mi konkordas ti, Don.  En mia opinio, plu simpla estas plu bona.

I agree with you, Don.  In my opinion, simpler is better.

>Personally, I prefer consistency -- if you start out to create an
>agglutinative language, agglutinate, and don't simply switch over to an
>inflected ending for one particular feature and just as a sop to the
>inventor of Adjuvanto.

Mi pensas ke ti estas hike korekto, Don.  Aktuale mi preferas aglutineco, e
do mi uzas sufikso "-i" aglutinata a vortastemo.  Estas empirika fakto ke
aglutinanta morfologio estas plu facila kam fusiala por altra personoi a
kompreni.

I think you're right here, Don.  Actually I prefer agglutination, and so I
use the suffix "-i" agglutinated to the word-stem.  It's an empirical fact
that agglutinating morphology is easier than fusional for other people to
understand.

>Esperanto has such a pronoun -- "gxi". Unfortunately, English-speakers feel
>uncomfortable using it, which has led to the common use of "tiu" in such a
>situation.

Ha.  Persone mi uzas "su" por neutra dicoi.  Forsan estas "inkorekta"
uzeca, ma mi preferas su (ka vidas? - LOL).

Ah.  Personally, I use "su" for neutral statements.  Perhaps
it's "incorrect" usage, but I prefer it (see? - LOL).

>Here I'd have to disagree. The point of the IAL is to keep the number of
>memorization units as small as possible. MAL- helps fulfill this admirably,
>and it does not detract from stylistic attractiveness, particularly when
>used consistently in the "triple whammy" construct (poor, bad and short --
>malricxa, malbona, malalta).

Kome Romanoi dicis, "De gustibus non disputandus est."  Aferoi de gusteca
ne estas disputenda.  Mi preferus uzi "mala" vice "malbona," "pobra" (o
altro vorto) vice "malricha," e "korta" (" ") vice "malalta."  Ma ita
simple estas mi.

As the Romans said, "De gustibus non disputandus est."  Matters of taste
are not to be disputed.  I would prefer to use "mala" instead
of "malbona," "pobra" (or some other such word) instead of "malricha,"
and "korta" (" ") instead of "malalta."  But that's just me.

>The problem is that there really isn't a problem -- you just have to know
>what the basic root means, not what its national-language equivalent is.
>For instance "bros'" is in itself "an object consisting of a number of
>bristles and used to smooth surfaces" or something like that; hence "broso"
>= a brush, "brosi" = to utilize a brush for what it is intended. On the
>other hand, "paf'" describes an action, and hence "pafi" = to shoot, "pafo"
>= the act of firing a shot, "pafilo" = a tool for carrying out that act;
>"pilot'" is a specific person with a specific job, so "piloti" is to carry
>out that job; "interpret'" is itself an action, so the person who
>vocationally or avocationally carries out that action is an
>"interpretisto". (Note: if James doesn't like "piloto/piloti", he can
>always use "sxipstiri/sxipstiristo" .)

Tala deriveco estas tro multa kuale Angla, en mia opinio.  Ma mi vidas su
ke ti dicas.

Such derivation is too much like English, in my opinion.  But I see what
you're saying.

>Note also that "vid'" describes an action, but "blind'" describes a state
>or quality. A person who is carrying out that action is an -ANT-o (present
>participle); a person who is in that state or has that quality is an -UL-o.
>One could also say "vidulo" or even "blindanto", but they would mean quite
>different things from "vidanto" and "blindulo" respectively.

Ito estas vera.  Uno mene povus dici "nevidanta" vice "blindula."  Anke
havi separata radiko por "blinda" estas bona kozo.

That's true.  One could even say "unseeing" instead of "blind."  However,
having a separate root for "blind" is a good thing.

>None of these usages is idiomatic or unclear _as long as you understand
>what the basic root means_, much as you would in your own language. One
>might argue, at a deeper level, that there was a certain amount of
>arbitrariness in choosing roots (why, for instance, did Zamenhof make
>"komb'" an action but "bros'" an object?), but I have yet to see a planned
>language in which there is no arbitrariness in defining words. (Myself, I
>tend to prefer action-roots to object-roots, since the structure of the
>language seems to favor the former over the latter. Frankly, I suspect that
>two hundred years from now the dictionaries will tell us that "bros'" means
>"the action of smoothing something down using an object covered with
>bristles", and that the tool for this is called a "brosilo" -- I've already
>seen the occasional hint that "telefon'" is moving in that direction, and
>the history of the development of the word for "computer" indicates that
>the concept is not an unpopular one.)

Semblas a mi ke en irga donata linguo, numero de verbala radikoi vaste
surpasas ito de nominala radikoi.  Ed a mi, derivi nominoi de verboi estas
plu facila kam faci altre.

It seems to me that in any given language, the number of verbal roots
vastly outnumbers that of nominal roots.  And to me, deriving nouns from
verbs is easier than to do otherwise.

>Actually, the infinitive, whatever its meaning, is a verb _form_, and
>consequently in Esperanto the adverb is used with it (as it is not just in
>the Slavic languages but in English -- "to boldly go", not "to bold go").

Uno povus trakti infinitivoi kome normala nominoi; ito estas, havu
konsonantala sufikso kun normala nominala ultimasufikso "-o" ed inflektu
su.  Por dicoi de emoi, uzu prepozicio "a(d)" ad ekspresi (ka vidas?)
dativa emo.  Forsan ni tambene povus uzi, en dicoi talkome "li povas faci
su," nedefinita formo por "primara verbo" (faci), pro primara ideo estas
ekspresata en "povas," ne en "faci."  Su povus sufici.

One could treat infinitives as normal nouns; that is, have a konsonantal
suffix with the normal nominal end-suffix "-o" and inflect it.  For
statements of purpose, use the preposition "a(d)" to express (see?) a
dative purpose.  Perhaps we could also use, in statements such as "they can
do it," an indefinite form for the "primary verb" (do), since the main idea
is expressed in "can," not in "do."  It could work.

>You can also use prepositions with infinitives in Esperanto, and many
>people do it regularly, though national-language habits tend to prevail in
>many cases (I had to teach myself to say "dankon pro telefoni").

Vidu su ke mi dicis supre :)

Mi se divertas kun ista linguo :)  Estas interesanta trovi diferecoi entre
mi nativa linguo, Angla, ed ista uno.  Certe ista linguo kontinuos evolvi e
forsan devenos sua propra linguo.  Mi planas ad uzi asiana linguoi kome
influoi por su, partikulare en areoi de vortaro e gramaro.  Ultima rezulto
probable estos tre diferanta kam sua kuranta formo.

See what I said above :)

I'm having fun with this language :)  It's interesting to find out the
differences between my native language, English, and this one.  Certainly
this language will continue to evolve and perhaps become its own language.
I plan to use Asian languages as influences for it, particularly in the
areas of vocabulary and grammar.  The final result will probably be very
different than its current form.

>(*) You do describe 'x' as used for "ks" or "gz" in Ido as a "digraph".
>Actually, a digraph is a pair of characters used to describe a single
>sound, not the other way around. I'm not sure what the technical term for
>'x' here would be -- a "diphone", perhaps? Mike Farris?

Ha, mi ne konocis ito.  Mi lektabis en deskribeco de griega gramaro ke
digrafoi estas singla leteroi por dua sonoi.  Ma forsan mi lektis su
nekorekte.  En irga kaso, dankoi por tia komento.

Ah, I didn't know that.  I had read in a description of Greek grammar that
digraphs are single letters for two sounds.  But perhaps I read it wrong.
In any case, thank you for your comment.

- Rob Haden

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January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
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September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
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July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
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June 2005, Week 1
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
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July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
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August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
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June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
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September 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
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October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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July 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
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February 1998, Week 5
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January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
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January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
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December 1997, Week 1
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June 1997, Week 5
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June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
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March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 3
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February 1997, Week 1

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