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CONLANG  February 2004, Week 1

CONLANG February 2004, Week 1

Subject:

Re: More ASCII IPA suggestions

From:

Andreas Johansson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 6 Feb 2004 20:16:08 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (254 lines)

Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>:


> >The big
> >change is that anything that is represented in the IPA by a
> >superscript is represented by ^ plus the sign in question;
> >thus ^h for aspiration, ^j for palatalization and so on.
> >When the superscripted character isn't ASCIIically
> >available, whatever is used for the character in its
> >independent IPA use is used instead; eg ^G for velarization.
>
> In my unfinished proposals I introduced a
> distinction between _ and ^ for indicating diacritics.
> For example _l indicated 'lateral' while ^l indicated
> 'lateral*iz*ed', _n was 'nasal' ^n was 'nasalized' etc.


Neato. However, implementing something of the sort would be a biggish
upheavel, so I'm only adding it to the possible ideas list for now.

> >I'm sure this scheme perserves a variety of aspects of CXS
> >others find obnoxious. Tell me, and we can hopefully word
> >out an improvement!
>
> I absolutely think that the \ and ` diacritics should
> *precede* the character they modify. In the case of the
> backslash this is the way it is normally used in
> programming languages, and in the case of ` one may
> (at least on a Swedish keyboard, as I'm sure you know)
> inadvertently type e.g. {tā} when {t`a} is intended,
> while {`ta} is fool-proof in this regard.

Probably because of the way letters like 'h' and 'j' are misused as
quasidiacritics in many Latinically written languages, I've always felt that
pseudodiacritics should follow the sign the modify, hard on automatic parsing
software as it may be.

And while frontifying ` would decrease typing pain with retroflex consonants,
it would increase it with rhotic vowels - you'd risk end up writing 'āt'
intending '`at', while the present 'a`t' is fool-proof.

Additionally, both the rhoticity hook and the "claws" of the retroflex IPA
letters go right, so I feel having the ` to the right improves mnemonicity.

> BTW I think that the frequent use of \ should be
> avoided, since it leads to ugly character sequences
> in phonemic transcriptions: /i\/ or /\i/ are equally
> bad in this respect! I have no immediate suggestion
> for an alternative diacritic, however. Perhaps * ?

I don't much like the backslash for this either, but good alternatives are
rare.

Least bad would probably be simply switching * and \ - no-one seems to be much
using the mid-centralizing diacritic anyway. Does anyone else have an opinion
on this?

> >The below mostly reproduces the IPA, but
> >I'm perfectly open to add more non-IPA distinctions. Anyway,
> >this what I have ATM:
>
> [snip]
>
> The only thing that really worries me is how the r`/4` distinction is to be
> represented in non-ASCII! :)

Well, solving that didn't figure in my objectives!

> Perhaps the olden click-symbol 'streched c' (U+0297)
> might be locally revived for [4`]!
>
> BTW there should of course be a retroflex lateral flap
> symbol [l\`] too!

Indeedy! Consider it added.

> >I do not ATM have any better idea than X-SAMPA's _< and _>
> >for implosives and ejectives - I'm open for suggestions.
>
> I suggest _! or ^! for implosives and _? or ^? for ejectives.

I rather like ^! and ^?. The later is somewhat worryingly similar to ^?\ for
pharyngealized, but we're already upholding some pretty fine distinctions
here, and the question mark is of course not wholly disimilar from the IPA
ejectivizer. They certainly beat the X-SAMPA indications, at any rate, so I'll
add them at least till I find something better.

> >Other consonant symbols:
> >
> >W voiceless labial-velar fricative.
> >w voiced labial-velar approximant.
> >H voiced labial-palatal approximant.
> >H\ voiceless epiglottal fricative (someone tell me what this is!)
> ><\ voiced epiglottal fricative
> >>\ epiglottal plosive (I want to change these two too - suggestions?)
>
> I used Q\ and P\ as ugly hack alternatives in my CXStoHTML perl script,
> since it is my absolute opinion that < and > should be avoided in something
> that is to be put inside an HTML document.

I'm still not clear what epiglottals _are_. However, I suspect that have very
little to do with any sound reasonably denoted with a 'p', capitalized and
diacritic'd or not. I think I rather prefer Q\ and q\, since they at least
vaguely suggest something far back, and I assume the "-glottal"
of "epiglottal" also does. I'll be using that for now.

I'd very much appreciate if someone took the time to explain epiglottals.

> >s\ voiceless alveopalatal fricative
> >z\ voiced alveopalatal fricative
> >s\! palatoalveolar click
> >l\ alveolar lateral flap
> >x\ simultaneous S and x
> >5 velarized alveolar lateral approximant
> >
> >Affricates and double articulations may optionally be
> >inclosed in { } to disambiguate.
>
> An old suggestion of mine. I used the same in my proposal

Yep. Should've mentioned you in the credits, I guess!

> >Alternatively, affricate or
> >double articulation may be assumed, and clusters separated
> >by '-'. Note that normal parentesis and square brackets
> >retain their IPA functions!
> >
> >Vowels:
> >
> >| i y i\ u\ M u
> >| I Y I\ U\ U
> >| e 2 @\ 8 7 o
> >| @
> >| E 9 3 3\ V O
> >| & 6
> >| a &\ A Q
>
> What about [8\] for [2^w]?

Consider it added, as an "other vowel symbol" in analogy with the "other
consonant symbols.

> >Superagementals:
> >
> >' Primary stress
> >, Secondary stress
> >: Long
> >; Half-long
> >;\ Extra short
> >. Syllable break
> >| Minor (foot) group
> >|| Major (intonation) group
> >
> >For tone, I don't have any improvements on CXS to suggest
> >ATM. However, if '<' and '>' are freed up, I'm thinking they
> >could be used to enclose tonal info. Eg, [ma<TMH>] would be
> >the syllable "ma" with an obnoxious extra high-mid-high
> >contour tone on. Since ! and ^ have been hijacked, it would
> >also allow us to use <!> and <^> for downstep and upstep.
>
> Good Idea.

Since '<' and '>' are now free, the above is official.

> May I also suggest the not unprecedented use of numbers 1-5 for
> tone annotation on the principle:
>
> <5> extra high
> <4> high
> <3> mid
> <2> low
> <1> extra low
>
> If you will it is a way of transcribing Chao-style tone letters.

Chao-style tone letters? I'm unfamiliar with that.

> It also allows for annotation of contour tones like this:
>
> <15> rising
> <51> falling
> <45> high rising
> <12> low rising
> <454> rising-falling


I can't see any reason we couldn't afford some reduncany here. So let's allow
either BLMHT or 12345.

> Additionally one may use # to indicate numbered tones, like
> /ma#1 ma#2 ma#3 ma#4/ for Mandarin, or /anden#1 anden#2/ for Swedish.

Fine for phonemic transcription, I guess, and as long as we've got at most ten
tones!

> >Diacritics:
> >
> >_0 voiceless (zero)
> >_v voiced
> >^h aspirated
> >_o more rounded (using lowercase lessens risk for confusion with _0)
> >_c less rounded
> >_+ advanced
> >_- retracted
> >¨ centralized (did not seem to be any reason not get rid of the
> underline)
>
> NB ¨ is not a valid ASCII character. I take it you mean ".

Correct.

> >* mid-centralized
> >= syllabic
> >= non-syllabic (can't think of any symbol that need distinct syllabic
> and
> >non-syllabic diacritics!)
> >` rhoticity
> >_¨ breathy voiced
>
> Same comment as per centralized above.
> May I suggest _h as an alternative?

It's a typo for _", inspired by the IPA diacritic. I like it better than _h,
but I guess a case could be made it ought be _h\ or ^h\. But I'm keeping _"
for the moment. _h being unclaimed could of course be an optional alternative.

> [snip]
>
> >_` no audible release (similarish to IPA diacritic, and I hate brackets
> used
> >for non-brackety purposes)
>
> Agreeissimo!
>
>
>
> >The ^X = superscript X convention may also be used for
> >writing explicitly falling or raising diphthongs: [a^i],
> >[^uo].
>
> NB that {u^o} might be ambiguous with your 'lowered'
> diacritic. E.g. German _au_ is phonetically {ao}.

I _did_ write [^uo], and ^u isn't defined as a diacritic! You're right in
substance, however; the scheme is presently ambuiguous here.

Hm, by my own rules, the nasal and lateral release should be ^n and ^l, which
frees up _l for lowered, which is mnemonically to be prefered, methinks. Then
we'll also have _r for raised. Which nicely solves the ambiguity with ^o, too.

I'd say that German diphthong is closer to [{Ao}], tho.

                                                              Andreas

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September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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