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CONLANG  February 2004, Week 1

CONLANG February 2004, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Swedish Chinese

From:

Benct Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:18:27 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (115 lines)

At 11:24 3.2.2004, Pavel Iosad wrote:
>Hello,
>
> > >What are they? I only know about [ok].
> >
> > Rather make that ["ok3\]...
>
>Ah.

That is, avoid it as a radiotic hypercorrection!


> > >  Well, unless you count the
> > >[u]-or-whatever in [kvIn:ur] as a spelling pronunciation (which it,
> > >AFAIU, historically is)
> >
> > _Att, av, och_ all used to be /o/,
>
>_att_ and _och_ as [o] are surely something I've heard not once.

That's the source for the change from _iak gangar at läggia mik_
to _jag går och lägger mig_, thus affecting the deep structure of the
language!  It has surely been around for a long time.

> > _till_ used to be /ti/ or /te/, _vid_ (prep.) /ve/ etc.
>
>Umm, _vid_ is [vI] for us students. Also _bredvid_ [brEv:I].

Definitely [ve(:)] and [bre"ve(:)] for me, but then my
dialect consistently changes Old short /i/ to /e/.


> > <rant> but the worst by far is the _-ade_ verb
> > preterite, which historically was only [a].
>
>But _sa_ and _la_ are kosher even in "proper" Swedish, aren't they?

Yes, but _kasta', prata', hitta'_ etc. etc. used to
be universal as well.  It is probably a good idea to
adopt that in your informal speech if you want to
sound native.


> > In fact most final and intervocalic _d g_ were historically [D G]
> > and were subsequently lost, so the pronunciation of [d g] in these
> > cases is strictly a spelling pronunciation for most lects.
>
>Ah, that was what I was wondering about as well.
>
> > Another thing is the ridicule directed at those who preserve a
> > distinct feminine gender.
>
>What is it? Do you mean the *distinction* between masculine and
>feminine, as in _den gode riddaren_ vs. _den goda kvinnan_? Or something
>else?

No, I mean to really have a feminine gender even for inanimate
nouns like _sol_.  Speakers of these dialects also usualy have
a distinct indefinite article _e_ [e(:)], and definite forms
like _sola_.  Värmland is the stereotypical stronghold, but it
holds true for a lot of other dialects too.  Traditionally most
Göta dialects were three-gender.

At 12:47 3.2.2004, Andreas Johansson wrote:

>I also have a set of cliticized object pronouns, so written _till honom_ "to
>him" may come out as [ten]. Historically, tho, that [-n] is from a reduced
>form of _han_ "him (acc)" rather than form _honom_ "he" (originally dat,
>IIRC).

Really?  I have them when I'm consciously talking Bohuslänska.
I quite normally have objective _han_ in unmonitored speech,
however.  I remember seeing a Västgötsk declension pattern
that went:
         NOM hu
         GEN henneres
         DAT ôtna
         ACC hu

At 13:08 3.2.2004, Andreas Johansson wrote:

> > BTW, is it true that some lects have [stu:g] for _stod_ because no other
> > preterite ends in [d], but plenty of them are in [g] (drog, log etc.)?
>
>Can confirm the fact, but not the explanation. Another preterite in /-d/ would
>be _skred_ "strode". However, [stu:g] could still be in analog with _drog_ et
>sim, since these words all add a consonant in the preterite - can't think of
>any other that adds /d/. (it's skrida, skred, skridit, with the /d/ in all
>forms.)

I also think it is the analogy explanation which is correct.
Cf. _drog, dog, tog, log_.

>My idiolect is vaciliating on this point - I probably say [stu:d] most of the
>time, but [stu:g] and [stu:] may also be heard.

With me it is the other way around: [stu:(g)] is normal, [stu:d] exceptional.



/BP 8^)
--
B.Philip Jonsson mailto:[log in to unmask] (delete X)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                A h-ammen ledin i phith!                \ \
     __  ____ ____    _____________ ____ __   __ __     / /
     \ \/___ \\__ \  /___  _____/\ \\__ \\ \  \ \\ \   / /
     / /   / /  /  \    / /Melroch\ \_/ // /  / // /  / /
    / /___/ /_ / /\ \  / /'Aestan ~\_  // /__/ // /__/ /
   /_________//_/  \_\/ /Eowine __  / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
  ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
|| Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
"A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)

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