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CONLANG  April 2004, Week 1

CONLANG April 2004, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Help: Zhyler ECM/Raising Verbs (Longish)

From:

Philippe Caquant <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sun, 4 Apr 2004 10:56:03 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (70 lines)

I feel it a little hard to see the point. I'm not
trying to copy English, I'm trying to think a logical-
and computer-oriented way. And I cannot see why I
should say "him-ACC the cake-DAT". Dative comes from
Latin "dare", and originally means "to give (to)". I
don't want anybody giving anything to the cake. I
don't see the need to add "to see" neither: maybe when
he will eat the cake, I'll be 500 miles away, so I
won't see anything at all. But as I noticed, I forgot
again NOT to use pasting from Word, as the result
seems little readable :-(

I don't think that "I eat-VOL cake" is the same as I
(cake-eat)-VOL. What I want is to eat cake, and not
just to eat, so -VOL should apply to the whole phrase,
and not just to the verb. Anyway, I think I don't want
to eat cake any more, let's rather drink vodka :-)

--- Trebor Jung <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Philippe wrote:
>
> "Now if you want to use something similar to
> translate “I want him to eat
> the cake”, you must have a form meaning “He is
> ((cake-eating)-wantED”. It is
> no more the same person who eats and who wants. This
> means that there must
> be a possibility to add a passive mark on the
> volitive mark (or to have a
> volitive-active vs a volitive-passive)."
>
> *sighs* Not another auxlanger... ;)) Why do many
> Europeans think that the
> passive voice is really necessary? (Why not just use
> emphasis particles for
> example?)
>
> In any case, you could say “I want him to eat the
> cake” as "I-NOM see-VOL
> eat him-ACC the cake-DAT". And "He eats the cake-VOL
> by me” doesn't even
> make sense!
>
> "So by now my idea would be to have both
> possibilities at hand : if in a
> language, the stem “to want” were “vol” for
> ex, than you could used that
> stem both as a real verb and as a (volitive) affix:
> Mi vol esn cak = Mi
> cakesnvol = I want to eat the cake = I (am)
> cake-eating-wanting."
>
> Why are you copying English? Why not just say "I
> eat-VOL cake"?
>
> To put it bluntly: seems a bit like you're stuck in
> linguistic Europe...
> Can't see past the rules of the languages you speak!


=====
Philippe Caquant

"High thoughts must have high language." (Aristophanes, Frogs)

__________________________________
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