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CONLANG  April 2004, Week 1

CONLANG April 2004, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Help: Zhyler ECM/Raising Verbs (Longish)

From:

David Peterson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 4 Apr 2004 17:51:27 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (161 lines)

Wow!  Thanks for all the responses!  I think I've come up with an answer (and this'll work for pretty much all control/raising verbs), and it was suggested to me by all the e-mails that people've sent.  Thanks a lot!

In order...

Henrik wrote:

<<Hmm, this reminds me of Japanese which, according to a book I have,
 prohibits expression of inner states of other people.>>

I was hoping someone would bring up Japanese and/or Turkish, since they're both robustly head-final, like Zhyler.  This is kind of like what I end up doing, except that when the subject of the wanting is the same as the subject of the embedded clause, it's done with a single VP:

food-ACC. eat-VOL.-1sg. = "I want to eat the food"

The same would hold true for any other subject.

Still Henrik:

<<This then means 'I enable you to eat.' (it ambiguously also means 'I
 enable that you eat food.', but this would not be the preferred
 reading.)>>

A number of people pointed this out, but in Zhyler, causation is handled with the causative suffix, to the extent that there are very few base verbs that have a causative interpretation (e.g., the two verbs for "to kill" are derived from the verbs "to die" and "to be dead" [each has a slightly different meaning]).  So with "to be able to", you get the following:

eat-CAUS.-ABIL.-1sg. "I can cause to eat"
eat-ABIL.-CAUS.-1sg. "I cause x to be able to eat"

Andreas wrote:

<< This is one of the ways to say it in Tairezazh: Ta zrón shu sha raig e'
 zaves "I want that you eat the bread". There's no overt accusative marker on
 the sentence _sha raig e' zaves_ "you eat the bread".>>

This is the comment that got my wheels spinning on my eventual answer.

Still Andreas:

<< I might be missing something, but couldn't you simply say "man-POS food-POS
 eating-GEN-GEN", treating the entire "food-POS eating-GEN" phrase as they 'y'
 of your schema above?>>

Though I have come up with an answer, there doesn't need to be only *one* answer.  After all, there are tons of ways to say a particular thing in any given language.  So, as soon as I can grok this (and right now I can't: I need to sit down with it and right it down on paper to get exactly what the meaning of this would be), this might be a viable second option (or first--I'll have to decide which would be statistically more frequent once I've got them both set).

t. wrote:

<<I have an entirely separate class of verbs for this, that is: verbs that
 can take another sentence/clause as an argument.>>

This is what I wanted to avoid.  In English, you can make just about any verb do this, if it has something to do with intent or emotion, or whatever.  In Zhyler, I wanted there to be no variety on this (the variety comes elsewhere).  So creating verbs isn't an option.

Still t.:

<<Why not like in a Turkish relative clause? I want food-eating-you.

     The man that plows my fields -> The my-fields-plowing-man

 I want something like this for relative clauses in Taruven but aren't
 quite there yet...>>

I explored the relative clause option, and decided I didn't like it.  Doesn't mean it wouldn't work; I just didn't want to go in that direction.

Trebor wrote:

<<For "I want you to eat the food", you could say "I-NOM see-VOL eat you-ACC
 the food-DAT".>>

Referencing a later e-mail, a language like this would most likely mark "you" as dative and "food" as accusative.

Philippe wrote:

<<I you translate: “He wants to eat the cake” by “He is
 cake-eating-VOL” (volitive), it means that “he” is
 “wanting”, so: “He is cake-eating-wanting”, or “He is
 ((cake-eating)-wanting). The same subject applies to
 “eat” and to “want”.>>

I read this whole e-mail, and let me tell you, this is a cool way of doing it.  With the nature of Zhyler, though, and the fact that I'm using the dummy verb "to see", it wouldn't make sense to do it this way in Zhyler (it'd be adding an extra level of stuff which wouldn't be necessary), but this is a cool idea.  I may borrow it for an isolating language I'm working on.  ;)

Remi wrote:

<<kajø-xaçø : pjü've-juvlo tos'rja.
 (my emotional)-will : (material object taken in)'this-food
 (indicative unreal future)'thou.
 = My will: You will absorb this food.

 (I can't translate the unreal aspect in English but it's logical that what
 one wants another one to do isn't real... until it's done.)>>

First, let me say, ha!  That's a funny translation.  I think I'm going to start expressing my desires that way.  "My will: You will allow it to me that I should absorb the last piece of pizza!"  Hee, hee...  I can understand how if you translated it "the normal way" you wouldn't get the sense of it, though.

Anyway, what you wrote in the parentheses is what gave me the rest of my idea, so here it is:

In order to express desire of x for y to act z, you do the following:

(1) X is the subject of the verb "to see" which has a volitive suffix.  So, /eat-VOL.-1sg./.  This verb is placed sentence-finally.

(2) The action is expressed normally.  So, if it's "you eat food", it's /food-ACC. eat-2sg./, with the sole exception that the verb is always in the irrealis.  So: /food-ACC. eat-IRR.-2sg./.

(3) Last, the *entire* VP is nominalized by adding a class XIV nominal suffix to the end of the verb.  So what you have is a verb that means something like, "for you to eat the food".  (I was having problems with this because I didn't know how a noun should mark its verb-like arguments.  In this case, though, the argument structure is set, and the nominal suffix is a clitic attached at the phrasal level, so there's no need to worry about it.)

(4) Finally, the VP in (3), being the direct object of the verb in (1), is marked with the accusative case.

So, to say, "I want you to eat the food", you say:

uspan-ar us-wM-l-an-ar mat-po-m
/food-ACC. eat-IRR.-2sg.-xiv-ACC. see-VOL.-1sg./

And there you have it.  Words like "intend", etc., are all taken care of by suffixes, and to express, for example, "I hate for you to do that", you add negative and pejorative suffixes to a verb with the volitive.  Yay!

Gary wrote:

<<What about things like "I wish you wnated to do x as
 much as I want to.">>

"Want", of course, wouldn't work the same way, since it's not a verb in its own right, but this'll be a good test case.  I'll work on it.

Trebor wrote:

<< *sighs* Not another auxlanger... ;)) Why do many Europeans think that the
 passive voice is really necessary?>>

Come on, man, there's no place for this--especially when you're not on solid ground with your arguments.  Besides, you made some crucial assumptions that you didn't stipulate.  Specifically, you wrote:

<<I don't quite see your point. "DAT" stands for "dative case", as you know.
 It marks the indirect object of a sentence, and has nothing to do with
 giving.>>

Not true.  Not, not, not, not, not, not true.  The dative case marks the indirect object in *some* languages, and even in those languages, the dative usually does something else.  To assume that every instance of the dative case in every language instantiates an indirect object and nothing else is, quite frankly, very euro-centric, which is specifically what you wanted to avoid.  Doug gave a good example from Turkish:

<< Disci mektub-u mudur-e imzala-t-ti
 Dentist letter-DO director-IO sign-CAUSE-PAST
 The dentist made the director sign the letter.

 DO = direct object
 IO = indirect object>>

Here, "director" is marked with the dative or indirect objective case, and "letter" is marked with the accusative, or direct objective case.  But it doesn't mean that "director" functions as the *semantic* indirect object, or even the functional indirect object.  What happened here is that the sentence above has, in a sense, another sentence within it:

Mudur mektub-u imzala-ti
 Director-NOM. letter-ACC. sign-PAST
 The director signed the letter.

In this case, the director is in the nominative.  The directors function, in both this sentence and in the above sentence, is identical: He's signing the letter.  He's the agent of the signing, and the letter is the patient.  In the causative sentence, though, "director" is marked with the dative case because it indicates that there's a grammatical demotion.  This is just like the passive, where the subject is demoted to an oblique.  Now, if cases themselves were at the bottom of everything, then every language would mark every role with the same case.  That, however, is not the (excuse the pun) case.  Off the top of my head, I can think of languages that mark a demoted subject in a passive with: (a) the instrumental, (b) the oblique, (c) the objective, (d) the authorative, and (e) the modalis (if I'm remembering the term right).

Now, in one thing, you were right: The dative case is just a case.  However, "dative" does not always have to mean indirect object.  There are no right and wrong ways to use case marking.  There are unpredictable ways, based on the rest of the language (e.g., your example, where "cake" was in the dative), but it's something that's entirely language-internal, and in no way is objective.  Semantic roles are the things that can be objective.  (Though even that, I'm sure, is not beyond debate.)

And. wrote:

<<"want" looks to be control/equi, not raising.>>

D'oh!  Of course, you're right.  It's rather embarrassing, though, after two quarters of syntax.  My professor stipulated, several times, that if there was *one* thing we should take away from the class, one thing we should be able to do, it should be:

(a) To know the four different types of raising/control verbs.
(b) To give English examples of each of the four.
(c) To run tests on each to show how they're different.

Obviously, I failed.  :(  I hope the Jon Moore that was in the relay isn't the John Moore who was my syntax professor...

Again, thanks everyone for the help!  You're awesome!

-David

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June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 5
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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