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AUXLANG  August 2004, Week 4

AUXLANG August 2004, Week 4

Subject:

Re: -able

From:

Matthew Barnett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 28 Aug 2004 00:57:57 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (159 lines)

In message <[log in to unmask]> you wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:01:53 +0300, Risto Kupsala
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >----  Original message from:  Rex May ----
> >&gt;
> >&gt; First, let me deconstruct these.
> >&gt;
> >&gt; &gt;1. Go ten kom karn de xyen.
> >&gt;
> >&gt; This translates as "I have a eat meat dog."  It can have several
> more
> >&gt; specific meanings.   I have a dog who eats meat a lot, or one
> who is
> >&gt; eating meat now.
> >&gt;
> >&gt; &gt;2. Go ten karnkom de xyen.
> >&gt;
> >&gt; Since "karnkom" means "carnivorous," the meaning of this
> sentence
> >&gt; is more limited than the first.   I have a carnivorous dog.
> >&gt;
> >&gt; &gt;3. Go ten de xyen kom karn.
> >&gt;
> >&gt; This probably isn't what you meant.  The de means that ten is a
> >&gt; modifier of what follows de.   So this would mean:
> >&gt;
> >&gt; I am a having sort of meat for dogs to eat.
> >
> >Not really. As in Chinese "de" modifies the preceding clause, which
> is in this case "go ten".
>
> By George, you're right!  Only you should say "de" makes the
> preceding clause -into- a modifier.  But yes, you're quite right.  This is
> a principle of Ceqli which suddenly eluded me.  Now, there are ways
> of making the sentence less confusing:
>
> Go ten de xyen kom karn.
>
> Bede go ten de xyen kom karn.  (the 'bede' acts as the "opening
> parenthesis" for the de-phrase.
>
> To go ten de xyen kom karn.  (the "to," meaning 'the,' signals that a
> noun
> phrase follows.
>
> You can also use 'te', which has no meaning except that a noun
> phrase follows, or "ta" or "tu."
>
> Beten go de xyen kom karn.  Is a little less confusing, maybe, because
> "Xyen" is, so to speak, the subject of the phrase rather than the object.
> And you can always use "hu"
>
> Xyen hu go ten (da) kom karn.  or
> Xyen hu beten go (da) kom karn.
>
Some languages have the extra pronoun '(da)' that refers to the
antecedent in a relative clause, so how about:

Xyen hu go ten ra kom karn.

> This all actually demonstrates the adaptability of Ceqli.  If one
> construction
> doesn't seem to work, there are other approaches.
>
> >Therefore "Go ten de xyen kom karn" means "The dog that I have ...
> >eats meat". It could be abbreviated to "Go de xyen kom karn".
> >However, what is important in my opinion, is that "Go pa ten de xyen"
> >= "The dog that I had" (if "pa" denotes past in Ceqli) can't be
> >abbreviated in the same way without partial loss of meaning. But that
> >is another subject of course.
>
> Well, sure.  The thing is,
> Go ten de xyen kom karn.

Go ten ra de xyen kom karn.

> Is in concise Ceqli, and it depends on the human mind to deconstruct
> it and come to the most likely meaning.  That initial phrase
> Go ten de xyen  is relatively unambiguous, as are most "possessive"
> phrases.
>
> >However, the fact that "de" can modify several words implicates that ..
> >"Go ten karnkom de xyen" could mean "I have a dog that meat eats",
>
> It could mean that, except that the compound "karnkom" means
> 'meat-eating' but the phrase "kom karn" means 'eats meat'.  An
> arbitrary
> rule.
>
>  >whereas "Go ten kom karn de xyen" means "I have a dog that eats
> >meat". In my opinion Chinese and Ceqli "...de" is best translated to
> >English with "that...". And "karnkom de" doesn't pass _that_ test.
>
> Sometimes it's the best translation, but sometimes, when a single
> word instead of a phrase is in question, a simple adjectival
> construction is a better translation:
>
> Go ten blude tomo.   I have a blue car.
>
> Go ten blu cem to skay de tomo.   I have a car that is bluer than the
> sky.
>
> And I think this is true of Chinese as well as Ceqli.
>
> >Or you can simply turn de-clauses to opposite hu-clauses. Then we
> >get:
>
>
> >Go ten kom karn de xyen. = Go ten xyen hu kom karn.
> >Go ten karnkom de xyen. = Go ten xyen hu karn kom.
>
> (here you need a single word, karnkom.  Remember that 'karnkom'
> actually
> means 'carnivorous.'
>
> >Go ten lupus kom de xyen. = Go ten xyen hu lupus kom. (I got a dog
> >that wolf eats/ate.)
>
> Yes, this one is slightly ambiguous, maybe.   And 'wolf' is 'berya,' from
> the Hindi.  Anyhow:
>
> Go ten berya kom de xyen.   I have a dog who is eaten by wolf/ves.
>
Go ten berya kom ra de xyen.

> In practice, it would be less ambiguous to say
>
> Go ten xyen hu bekom berya.  or
> Go ten bekom berya de xyen.
>
> Go ten kom berya de xyen.  I have a dog who eats wolves.
>
Go ten ra kom berya de xyen.

> >
> >Am I right?
>
> Pretty much!
>
[snip]
> >I have always been impressed about Ceqli's agility, and that's
the
> feeling I got reading these sentences. There is some beauty in Ceqli's
> simplicity that not many other conlangs that I know of have. Sorry
> Esperantists, Interlinguanists etc but I'm afraid that the new wave of
> conlangs will flush your ancient sandcastles off the shore sooner or
> later.
> >
> >(With the new wave I mean novel languages such as Ceqli and not
> the ripples of the old wave such as Ulango, Aiola and Facile though
> they too are new languages.)
> >
> Dang!  That's poetic!
>
I'd just say that if I didn't like Ceqli I wouldn't be discussing it!
:-)

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