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AUXLANG  August 2004, Week 4

AUXLANG August 2004, Week 4

Subject:

Re: -able

From:

Rex May <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:53:04 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (215 lines)

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:01:53 +0300, Risto Kupsala
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>----  Original message from:  Rex May ----
>&gt;
>&gt; First, let me deconstruct these.
>&gt;
>&gt; &gt;1. Go ten kom karn de xyen.
>&gt;
>&gt; This translates as "I have a eat meat dog."  It can have several
more
>&gt; specific meanings.   I have a dog who eats meat a lot, or one
who is
>&gt; eating meat now.
>&gt;
>&gt; &gt;2. Go ten karnkom de xyen.
>&gt;
>&gt; Since "karnkom" means "carnivorous," the meaning of this
sentence
>&gt; is more limited than the first.   I have a carnivorous dog.
>&gt;
>&gt; &gt;3. Go ten de xyen kom karn.
>&gt;
>&gt; This probably isn't what you meant.  The de means that ten is a
>&gt; modifier of what follows de.   So this would mean:
>&gt;
>&gt; I am a having sort of meat for dogs to eat.
>
>Not really. As in Chinese "de" modifies the preceding clause, which
is in this case "go ten".

By George, you're right!  Only you should say "de" makes the
preceding clause -into- a modifier.  But yes, you're quite right.  This is
a principle of Ceqli which suddenly eluded me.  Now, there are ways
of making the sentence less confusing:

Go ten de xyen kom karn.

Bede go ten de xyen kom karn.  (the 'bede' acts as the "opening
parenthesis" for the de-phrase.

To go ten de xyen kom karn.  (the "to," meaning 'the,' signals that a
noun
phrase follows.

You can also use 'te', which has no meaning except that a noun
phrase follows, or "ta" or "tu."

Beten go de xyen kom karn.  Is a little less confusing, maybe, because
"Xyen" is, so to speak, the subject of the phrase rather than the object.
And you can always use "hu"

Xyen hu go ten (da) kom karn.  or
Xyen hu beten go (da) kom karn.

This all actually demonstrates the adaptability of Ceqli.  If one
construction
doesn't seem to work, there are other approaches.

>Therefore "Go ten de xyen kom karn" means "The dog that I have ...
>eats meat". It could be abbreviated to "Go de xyen kom karn".
>However, what is important in my opinion, is that "Go pa ten de xyen"
>= "The dog that I had" (if "pa" denotes past in Ceqli) can't be
>abbreviated in the same way without partial loss of meaning. But that
>is another subject of course.

Well, sure.  The thing is,
Go ten de xyen kom karn.
Is in concise Ceqli, and it depends on the human mind to deconstruct
it and come to the most likely meaning.  That initial phrase
Go ten de xyen  is relatively unambiguous, as are most "possessive"
phrases.

>However, the fact that "de" can modify several words implicates that ..
>"Go ten karnkom de xyen" could mean "I have a dog that meat eats",

It could mean that, except that the compound "karnkom" means
'meat-eating' but the phrase "kom karn" means 'eats meat'.  An
arbitrary
rule.

 >whereas "Go ten kom karn de xyen" means "I have a dog that eats
>meat". In my opinion Chinese and Ceqli "...de" is best translated to
>English with "that...". And "karnkom de" doesn't pass _that_ test.

Sometimes it's the best translation, but sometimes, when a single
word instead of a phrase is in question, a simple adjectival
construction is a better translation:

Go ten blude tomo.   I have a blue car.

Go ten blu cem to skay de tomo.   I have a car that is bluer than the
sky.

And I think this is true of Chinese as well as Ceqli.

>Or you can simply turn de-clauses to opposite hu-clauses. Then we
>get:


>Go ten kom karn de xyen. = Go ten xyen hu kom karn.
>Go ten karnkom de xyen. = Go ten xyen hu karn kom.

(here you need a single word, karnkom.  Remember that 'karnkom'
actually
means 'carnivorous.'

>Go ten lupus kom de xyen. = Go ten xyen hu lupus kom. (I got a dog
>that wolf eats/ate.)

Yes, this one is slightly ambiguous, maybe.   And 'wolf' is 'berya,' from
the Hindi.  Anyhow:

Go ten berya kom de xyen.   I have a dog who is eaten by wolf/ves.

In practice, it would be less ambiguous to say

Go ten xyen hu bekom berya.  or
Go ten bekom berya de xyen.

Go ten kom berya de xyen.  I have a dog who eats wolves.

>
>Am I right?

Pretty much!

>
>&gt; For what I think you mean, you should use hu.
>&gt;
>&gt; Go ten xyen hu kom karn.
>&gt;
>&gt; I have a dog that eats meat.
>&gt;
>&gt; Note that:
>&gt;
>&gt; Go ten xyen hu karnkom.
>&gt;
>&gt; Means, I have a carnivorous dog.
>&gt;
>&gt; &gt;4. Gode xyen kom karn.
>&gt;
>&gt; Meaning, My dog eats meat.  Again, not exactly the same thing.
The
>&gt; first sentences are assertions of ownership or association, the
latter
>&gt; an assertion about eating.  At least, the emphasis is different.
And,
>&gt; they would be answers to different questions:
>
>Yes, you are right about that. I was thinking pretty much the same
>because I know languages where different order of words
>differentiates the meaning of sentences. But there's no guarantee
>that it's the best way to do it.

Quite agree.  It's only one way to do it, and as it seems to work in
Chinese and English, I picked it for Ceqli.

>
>&gt; Zi ten kwa di.  What kind of animal do you have?
>&gt;
>&gt; Go ten xyen hu kom karn.
>&gt;
>&gt; Zide xyen kom kwa?   What does your dog eat?
>&gt;
>&gt; Gode xyen kom karn.   My dog eats meat.
>&gt;
>&gt; Or,
>&gt;
>&gt; Zi ten kwa de xyen?   What kind of dog do you have?
>&gt;
>&gt; Go ten komkarn de xyen.  I have a carnivorous dog.
>
>I have always been impressed about Ceqli's agility, and that's the
feeling I got reading these sentences. There is some beauty in Ceqli's
simplicity that not many other conlangs that I know of have. Sorry
Esperantists, Interlinguanists etc but I'm afraid that the new wave of
conlangs will flush your ancient sandcastles off the shore sooner or
later.
>
>(With the new wave I mean novel languages such as Ceqli and not
the ripples of the old wave such as Ulango, Aiola and Facile though
they too are new languages.)
>
Dang!  That's poetic!

>&gt;
>&gt; &gt;The following two sentences also convey exactly the same
meaning
>&gt; as the previous ones.
>&gt; &gt;
>&gt; &gt;5. Go ten xyen hu kom karn.
>&gt; &gt;6. Go ten xyen. Da kom karn.
>&gt;
>&gt; Yes, pretty much the same thing, just a different structure.  Also,
you
>&gt; can say
>&gt;
>&gt; Go ten xyen.  X kom karn.   (X pronounced xantsi)
>&gt; &gt;
>&gt; &gt;In my opinion there is redundancy but, on the other hand,
isn't it
>&gt; redundancy that makes a language and its poetry rich?
>&gt;
>&gt; Yes, and it also enables different structures for different
purposes.
>&gt;
>&gt; Go ten kom betunu de karn xyen.
>
>I think you meant to say: Go ten betunu de karn de xyen.

Yes, better, but 'kom' got left out.  Ideal form:

Go ten kom betunu de karn de xyen.

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