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CONLANG  September 2004, Week 1

CONLANG September 2004, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Chinese Romanization (was: USAGE: Help with Chinese phrase)

From:

Tamás Racskó <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:33:47 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (216 lines)

On 7 Sep 2004 Ray Brown <ray.brown@FREE...> wrote:

> > they were). I do not want to extend this debate immoderately,
>
> Nor do I, as I do not think we will reach any definite conclusion.
> I think we had best 'agree to disagree' over this.

  For the above reason, I will try to limit myself in reflecting.


> It does, but the GT treatment of the dental, retroflex & palatal
> series does not strike me as having much bearing on the Pinyin
> system:
>
>                   IPA          GT                 Pinyin
>dental         ts ts=CA=B0 s      ds ts s            z  c  s
>retroflex      t=CA t=CA=CA=B0 =CA  =CA   dsch tsch sch j    zh ch sh=
 r
>palatal        t=C9 t=C9=CA=B0 =C9      dj tj hs           j  q  x

  You are right here, but the task of the Chinese designers was to
create one-letter initials (plus possible accent characters for
aspirate, retroflex etc. quality). Therefore every predecessor
system should be -- imaginally -- re-designed with monographic
onsets before thainking it into consideration. In German |ds|~[ts]
pair can be easily replaced by |z] and |c|, but Frech and English
system have no such alternatives. (I will exclude Russian
transciption here, because it had to be transcribed before into
Latin script. On this point we must choose whether Cyrillic letter
{ts} is to be transcribed by German-dominated Central European
convention, or by western Anglo-Romance way. In this phase we face
also German, English, French etc. systems.)


> > /z`/ as {sh-}* ~ {zh-}, while PY does not: |sh-| ~ |r-|.
> > Moreover, as far I know, RT does not distiguish between Pinyin
> > |hs-| and |s-|, it uses {s-}** for both onsets. The same is
> > true for PY |z-| > ~ |j-| vs. common RT {ts.z-}.
>
> Arguably, as I said in a mail I sent last evening, the palatals
> are allophones of the dental series. The RT is by no means alone in
> treating them this way.

  (Just a remark: IMHO they are not allophones, in fact, they are
homophones, i.e. historically different syllables that are merged
into prensent-day Peking dialect.) Here I see an important point:
all the systems, except Russian, uses a _third_ variant for the two
merged syllables. On the contrary, Russian extended one orginal
variant in a "pars pro toto" way. If the design would have been
based on Russian influence, PY solution would be either |s| or |h|
(as well as |z| or |g| etc.) instead of the third |hs| (|j|). One
of the most particular characteristics of RT was left out of
consideration here.


> I do not claim that the RT had any _direct_ influence on Pinyin;
> what influence it had came through Latinxua.

  Let me use some loose terminology here and let me denote the
common set of Pinyin and both their endogenous predecessors
respectively with a common term as "Pinyin". But I do not see the
Russian elements even in Latinxua (e.g. no common denotation of
palatalized onset pairs |g| : |z|, |k| : |c|, |h(x)| : |s|; |sh| :
|r(h)| pair is not a voiced-unvoiced orthographical pair).


> All true - which makes me even more of the opinion that the Maoist
> government were concerned basically with the earlier _Chinese_
> transcriptions.

  Then let me rephrase the question: What kind(s) of conventions
influenced e.g. Latinxua?
  (I do not continue the thread on politics, however I do not see
it as simple as you. Mao had a strong opposition in the party and
he was gradually pushed into the background. The Cultural
Revolution was Mao's break-out with the help of rural redicalism.
It was against also previous communist era.)


> >   Hungarian uses, too, but this is due to the German cultural
> > influence (the early universities of the area were in Germany).
>
> But that's going way back in history.
[...]
> I did not say it was! I merely pointed out that by 1950, there was
> nothing particularly German about |c| =3D /ts/. Why, that is the
> Esperanto convention!

  The latter is an interesting question. I would be significant to
know the ideological status of Esperanto in 1950 in the Soviet
Union and in China. (I am not aware of this.) An "Esperantoist"
designer could have been a mediator of |c|, however in this case I
wonder why the accented consonants were not mediated, too.

  You may call it "back in history", but I, as an inhabitant of
that area, still feel this cultural influence. And let me mention
that the significant part of the Soviet elite was of Jewish origin.
Their native bias was German. (Even Zamenhof's: the /g/ ~ /h/ ~ /x/
triplet of Esperanto reflects German phonemicity, not Slavonic.)
Russian influence could mean German influence in fact...

  And I feel still important that German is the only language in
question where both graphemes |c| and |z| may denote alveolar
affricates.


> No alphabetic system AFAIK consistently uses monographs; some use
> them more than others. (I do not consider the Zhuyin Fuhao, aka
> Bopomofo, to be an alphabet)

  I treated Russian {dz} in my argumentation as a monograph (i.e.
equivalent of Cyrillic {z}), since it is only the Grazhdanka
solution of Church Slavonic monograph letter "dze^lo". Even {dzh}
could be interpreted as a functional monograph. These are native
Slavonic monophonemic solutions. But RT chose suprising solutions
here instead of native ones, like {ts.z} and {ch.zh}. They are not
even monophonemic. IMHO, this extreme markedness of these graphemes
should be reflected in BL or PY (or in other transciprions as well)
if there would be significant Russian Slavonic contribution.


> But |=FC| is used only after |l| and |n|. In all other instances PY
> writes [y] simply as |u|.

  It is true but it does not affect the merits of my argumentation:
PY uses circumflex accent on |e| to mark front pronunciation. They
could use circumflex even on front |u| (that is in contrast with
back |u|) or simply maintain Latinxua solution. Umlaut here reveals
that German notation/orthography was taken into consideration and
it could be preferred even to previous Chinese conventions such as
Latinxua |y| (even despite of the political-ideological
considerations).


> By the 1950s the Chinese People's Republic could find |=C3=A5| =3D [y]
> in many other places, including Turkey - but I am *not*
> suggesting Turkish influence!

  Turkish influence can be ruled out only because no other Turkish
characteristics can be observed in Chinese transcriptions (however,
dotless "i" could solve some problems with ambiguous |-i| coda).
And they not were present in China, while Germans had concessions.

  (It is a further question whether there is a correlation between
Turkish choice of |=FC| and |=F6|, and the orthographic traditions of
the nearest nations with Latin script that have these sounds: i.e.
Hungarian and German. In Hungarian they are definitely a German
borrowing, thus I think Turkish |=FC| and |=F6| are also such.)


> The whole debate about the phonemic status of [E] and [o] is not
> settled AFAIK.

  You are right but I did not mention the syllabical vowels, only
the ones found in interjections and written oddly. E.g. this [o]
occurs in itself without labial onset.


> I think most (all?) agree that [E]is an allophone of the mid
> central unrounded vowel [=C9] (CXS [@])

  This |e^| =3D [E] interjection I mentioned is an interchangeable
phonetic variant of interjections |ei| with various tonemes. In
syllabical situation, you could be right here, however -- if I
remember correctly -- [E] is _also_ an allophone for [a] e.g. in
codas |-ian|, |-uan| (AFAIK the latter can be pronounced both as
/yan/ and /yEn/. [[I use X-SAMPA]]).

----

> It is interesting that the French system of Ecole fran=C3=A7ais
> d'Extr=C3=AAme-Orient adopted the same sort of solution as Beila,
> namely:
> - ts, ts' and s represent palatals before [i] and [y] but
> dentals elsewhere;
> - k, k' and h represent palatals before [i] and [y] but velars
> elsewhere.

  According to my sources, the French system is the oldest one used
recently. It reflects an older, dialectal pronunciation. (Possibly
its origin goes back to the system of Nicolas Trigault created in
1625.) This scheme is adopted also in Hungarian philoligical
transcription. Some interesting observations can be taken by
comparison with Japanese pronunciation, e.g. Chinese PY readings
|jian4| are borrowed both as |ken| and as |sen|. See a Middle
Chinese etymological dictionary at <http://www-
personal.umich.edu/~wbaxter/etymdict.html>


> Indeed, it is even further complicated by the fact that the
> retroflex series are not found either before [i] and [y], therefore
> it could be argued that the palatals are allophones of the
> retroflex affricates and fricative

  Yes, however the situation is the same with alveolar non-plosives
and velar non-plosives. Thus three possible underlying structures
could have a common surface representation. However alveolar and
velar non-plosives form triples similarly to the palatal series,
but there are four retroflex onsets. If we would bind palatal
intials to retroflex ones, syllables with |r-| would be orphaned.
You may consider a rule like [+front] -> [-front] / [+retroflex] _
though, to solve the problem.


> > An interesting point is that Ricci IIRC used _b d g_ the same
> > way PY does.
>
> That's very interesting. If you recall rightly, it makes the
> German theory of the origin even less likely IMO. So the tradition
> of using _b d g_ this way possibly goes back 4 centuries!

  It is possible -- nor I excluded Italian influence on |z| erlier
-- but I wonder whoever preserved this tradition for centuries.
Chinese interest in romanization is fairly recent. And it became
extinct in Latin systems, except German.

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September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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