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CONLANG  October 2004, Week 1

CONLANG October 2004, Week 1

Subject:

Of octopuses etc. (was: Adopting a plural)

From:

Ray Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 7 Oct 2004 19:25:26 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (82 lines)

On Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 08:32 , Philippe Caquant wrote:

>  --- John Cowan <[log in to unmask]> skrev:
>> Ray Brown scripsit:
>
>>> It ought to have given French *pouf, but it
>> didn't. The French has
>>> changed gender and is _la pieuvre_ and I don't
>> know the etymology.
>>
>> The online Tresor de la langue francaise at
>> http://atilf.atilf.fr/tlfv3.htm lists both _pieuvre_
>> (f.) and _poulpe_
>> (m.); though the latter is labeled "syn. cour.
>> pieuvre', it is cited as
>> recently as 1929.  16th-century forms _poupe_ and
>> _pourpe_ are cited,
>> so this may be a semi-learned form.

Yes, I discovered "poulpe" (which looks as tho it ought to be feminine,
but ain't) after I sent my mail. It must be a semi-learned form as also, I
think, Spanish 'pulpo' must be. One would have expected the Spanish to be
*puelbo. the Portuguese & Italian forms are normal developments from a VL
*pOlpo- or *pOlpU-. "pourpe" is strange & looks like a dialect vriant of
'poulpe' as also is 'poupe'.

> My etymological dictionnary says for "pieuvre": 1866,
> Hugo, dialectal form from the Channel Islands; from
> Latin polypus, through stages 'pueuve', 'pieuve' (like
> 'yeux'), et with 'r' due to a false regression.

Interesting. It still doesn't explain the final -ve. We would expect -f.
Also the word is feminine. Also - 'ueu' would derive from VL /O/ in an
_unblocked syllable_. It suggests that in north Gaul, at least, the form
was *pOlUpa (I'm guessing the [Y] was treated as [U] in popular speech and
that we have *['pwEl@v@] --> [pwElv@]. Now early French [we] became [w9]
without need of following -l- becoming [w]; so I wonder if -lv- become
-vl- --> -vr- by metathesis.

> So it seems that Victor Hugo introduced the word in
> French (in his book Les Travailleurs de la Mer, I
> guess, where he describes an horrible and gigantic
> octopus that probably never existed anywhere).
> 'Poulpe' is used too.

So I discover. Anyway, it looks as tho 'pieuvre' is dialect.

[snip]

> is or are hoodla, but I recall that for a long time, I
> used to say "une agenda", until some charitable soul
> told me that I should say "un agenda" (and why should
> I say so, if it is a neutral plural ? It should be
> "des agenda", or "des agendas" ?) Anyway, it just
> sounds rather weird to have to say "un" with an ending
> in -a, whatever the etymology.

le Canada?

> Just as it sounds weird
> to have to tell a brave, strong and fierce young man
> in uniform: "C'est vous la sentinelle ?" (are you the
> sentry? fem.)

Agreed  :)

> The word "pouf" exists in French, but it has nothing
> to do with octopuses. It's a kind of soft seat and the
> names seems to come from the noise you make when you
> let your backside fall onto it.

We English have borrowed both soft seat and the word from you  :)

Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[log in to unmask]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason."      [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]

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